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Thread: Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    Yes, it was in response to Lavender and anyone else who refuses to acknowledge the essential beauty of Sasha's skating. You would have to be blind not to see it, or disingenuous. Take your pick. I didn't say Sasha was a perfect skater, but she IS a beautiful skater, and it is out there for everyone to see, period. It can't be argued to the contrary and be taken seriously. If there were all these other people out there who can deliver as awesomely a beautiful performance (yes, flawed but still beautiful) as Sasha can, I would love to know their names. You know Nymkf51, I really like the adult tone of people like Joesitz and RealtorGal who can appreciate all the skaters. That's why I post here. The joy of this site is that you can be, first, a Michelle fan and still acknowledge the very real qualities of the other skaters. Such as Irina's real courage in upping the ante while dealing with her own illness and her mother's illness. These things can't be denied no matter how much some people would like to do that. It is very refreshing that there is a place where things like this can be said and you won't have a 20 people telling you that your crazy. Only one or two.
    Kyla, while I do see your point on several fronts, you cannot argue with the fact that there ARE people who just don't like Sasha's skating...

    For me, I don't see the qualities in her skating that you see... In my honest opinion, her skating is a bunch of gumby moves on ice to boring music. But that doesn't make me unaware or disingenuous of what others see... it just means that I'm not a fan.

    And this is a great site with adult opinions about a complex & artistic sport, but art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder...

    Its no secret that I'm an uber kwan fan... more importantly, i'm proud of that fact, but there are other skaters out there that I feel are her equal & when she slips (and sometimes when she doesn't...) she loses & people here discuss that & sometimes its hard to read & stomach but too bad for me if I get upset about it... But at the same time, it doesn't keep me from appreciating the efforts of Irina & Fumie & Diva (who is probably the most beautiful... if just for the Ina...) & even Sasha...

    However, this is a sport. And in my opinion, when a skater spends a lot of time on their heiny, that is not beautiful. That is a waste of talent. Period.

    I'm not going to get into the whole "name other skaters who deliver beautiful skates" because that's silly. I will say that its not crazy to think she's a beautiful skater but it is crazy to feel offended if others don't share your opinion.

    KW
    Last edited by Kwanford Wife; 05-18-2005 at 08:25 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    Yes, it was in response to Lavender and anyone else who refuses to acknowledge the essential beauty of Sasha's skating. You would have to be blind not to see it, or disingenuous. Take your pick. I didn't say Sasha was a perfect skater, but she IS a beautiful skater, and it is out there for everyone to see, period. It can't be argued to the contrary and be taken seriously.
    Wow. That's a scary post. So yours is the final opinion with no room for difference of opinion? That's not debate. And the scariest thing about your post is that the persons that you are responding to AREN'T disagreeing with you. They are merely qualifying their agreement of Sasha's specialness. Lavender didn't fail to acknowledge Sasha's specialness, she acknowledged that there are other exquisite skaters LIKE Sasha. You can feel free to disagree with her, but to call people outright blind, disingenous and unworthy to argue the contrary is over the top.

    So I guess I'm 100% wrong if I say that while I admire the stunning beauty of Sasha's positions and flexibility, she fails to move me emotionally on every level. That I appreciate the extra touches (pointed toes, straight back, lovely carriage), but that I can never see the love and passion in her eyes. Yukina Ota, Yuka Sato, Dorothy Hamel, Janet Lynn, Chen Lu. All skaters that I consider more equisite than Sasha. Because they move me. But by your limited standards that must mean I'm blind and disingenuous. Oooookaayyy...
    Last edited by Skate Sandee; 05-18-2005 at 08:28 PM.

  3. #33
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    Well, I have to admit that this thread got me scurrying to the dictionary to see if I really knew what all these words mean.

    Disingenuous: lacking in frankness, candor or sincerity.

    On the contrary, I think that the people who don't like Sasha's skating are quite frank, candid and sincere about it.

    Brittle: having hardness and rigidity but little tensile strength.

    Well, this is the exact opposite of Sasha. Sasha has flexibility and strength to burn, but she is not hard or rigid in the slightest.

    Fragile: Easily broken or damaged.

    I have yet to see Sasha broken or damaged.

    So now I am more confused than ever.

    Mathman

  4. #34
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    Uh Huh

    I recognize a few of you from the other forum as beyond Uber fans. The only thing that scares me SkateSandee is when you think it's "scary" to recognize other skater's attributes. Talk about your Uber fans. I don't buy into the if I love Michelle theory then I can't like Sasha or Irina or Shizuka also. That's juvenile. Yes, I think it's disingenuous not to acknowledge Sasha's very beautiful presentation even if her skating isn't your cup of tea. In other words, when there is an elephant in the room, saying it isn't there, doesn't make it so.
    I agree with Peggy and Dick and everyone else in the figure skating world that sees something special and unique in Sasha. Let me guess, who's wrong here? Peggy and Dick, with YEARS of experience in skating that none of us can begin to relate to, or some of you who just can't quite come to terms with Sasha's specialness because she is Michelle's direct competitor. Frankly, I think you all see what Peggy, Dick and the judges see, but you just refuse to acknowledge it. Acknowledging Sasha does not diminish Michelle's place in the figure skating world, or the history of figure skating for that matter. I think more of Michelle than that. Irina is also Michelle's direct competitor, and her style isn't my cup of tea, but I think she is a wonderful skater with the capacity to beat anyone out there. I love Fumie's skating and Shizuka's and Carolina's and Suzanne's and Joannie's etc as well. They all have wonderful qualities. But they are not Sasha. She brings something very special to figure skating and whether some of you want to acknowledge it or not, is unimportant. It will not diminish who she is and what she brings to the sport.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    I recognize a few of you from the other forum as beyond Uber fans. The only thing that scares me SkateSandee is when you think it's "scary" to recognize other skater's attributes. Talk about your Uber fans. I don't buy into the if I love Michelle theory then I can't like Sasha or Irina or Shizuka also. That's juvenile. Yes, I think it's disingenuous not to acknowledge Sasha's very beautiful presentation even if her skating isn't your cup of tea. In other words, when there is an elephant in the room, saying it isn't there, doesn't make it so.
    I agree with Peggy and Dick and everyone else in the figure skating world that sees something special and unique in Sasha. Let me guess, who's wrong here? Peggy and Dick, with YEARS of experience in skating that none of us can begin to relate to, or some of you who just can't quite come to terms with Sasha's specialness because she is Michelle's direct competitor. Frankly, I think you all see what Peggy, Dick and the judges see, but you just refuse to acknowledge it. Acknowledging Sasha does not diminish Michelle's place in the figure skating world, or the history of figure skating for that matter. I think more of Michelle than that. Irina is also Michelle's direct competitor, and her style isn't my cup of tea, but I think she is a wonderful skater with the capacity to beat anyone out there. I love Fumie's skating and Shizuka's and Carolina's and Suzanne's and Joannie's etc as well. They all have wonderful qualities. But they are not Sasha. She brings something very special to figure skating and whether some of you want to acknowledge it or not, is unimportant. It will not diminish who she is and what she brings to the sport.
    Are you seriously serious? Please. Spare me this drama.

    You totally missed Sandy's point. Its scary that you have decided that only your opinion counts & the rest of us are just so blind by our cultlike devotion to our favorites that we cannot see Sasha's greatness and therefore our opinions don't count. But we're the ones who are blind? Don't think so.

    Let's just break this down once & for all...

    What I see is a skater who has been hyped for years because she points her toes but fails to deliver. That's fact, not opinion. A fact that has been talked about for years. Paritcularily by the oh-so fabulous team of Peggy & Dick and the judges haven't exactly been rewarding her particular brand of special skating...

    Capacity to beat someone is not the same as actually beating someone. The Yankees had the capacity to beat the Sox, but didn't. The Lakers had the capacity to beat Detroit (go pistons!) but didn't. In sports, delivery is key, not capacity.

    I'm an uber because you can't like everybody. I admire athletes, not pretty toes. I admire a lot of skaters but I'm not a fan. I'm an uber because I choose to be a hardcore, US focused fan of the American skater that combines artistic quality with a commitment to winning. But that doesn't diminish other skaters in my eyes because I can't appreciate their style & talent or fear they will beat the Kwan. I just like MK above all. Its a bit silly to say that I don't like Sasha because she could beat MK. I don't like Sasha's skating because I don't like her skating, pointed toes and all. Period.

    Basically, root for who you like, but don't get so bent out of shape because other people don't agree with you.

    KW

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    However her edges are shaky, her mind fragile, her jump technique has some serious chinks. She is the silver, bronze, and 4th place queen of skating, nobody of the current women has contended so often to win so little.
    I think Cohen is exactly the opposite of Irina in terms of her edges and speed. It has been reported that Russian skaters practice at outdoor rinks a lot. Outdoor rinks conditions are more variable than indoor rinks, definitely no zamboni around to smooth out the ruts etc. But then harsh conditions sharpens the mental toughness. irina, Xue and Hongbo are some examples. In worlds 03 when Xue skated to world gold with a broken ankle was a huge indication of her mental toughness. Can't see Cohen even begin to touch that.

    Of course I am not advocating that skating at outdoor rinks is the only way to arrive at mental toughness. Tara seems to have that even at the age of 14.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfordwife
    I admire athletes, not pretty toes.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyla
    she is Michelle's direct competitor
    Have to disagree that Cohen is Michelle's direct competitor. The record shows that she beat Michelle a few times that does not translate to direct competitor. I am sure Garcia had beaten Tiger a few times, and no he is not Tiger's competitor. I am just talking about sports record, IMO of course. About specialness of different skaters, those are subjective. What you think is special is another's bathroom break. yawn

    Quote Originally Posted by kyla
    I don't buy into the if I love Michelle theory then I can't like Sasha or Irina or Shizuka also
    Skatesandee never said since "I love Michelle, I can't like shizuka or Sasha" just a poster's over dramatic imagination or projection perhaps??
    Last edited by gezando; 05-19-2005 at 12:28 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    .So now I am more confused than ever.
    Seriously doubt you are confused. I am not checking a dictionary, when I see the word brittle, the first thing I associate with is brittle diabetic. Yeah, Cohen's performance from different phases of the same competition, and from competitions to competitions is brittle.

    About fragile, I think Slutskayafan described it well.
    Last edited by gezando; 05-19-2005 at 12:16 AM.

  8. #38
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    It is certainly possible to like one thing about a skater, but not another.

    You can admire Sasha's beautiful upper body positions, yet be less impressed with her edges.

    You can love Michelle's heart, take delight in her personality, and be blown away by her footwork and split jump, yet still wish that her spins were faster.

    You can like Irina's jumping prowess, yet find her spiral positions ungraceful.

    You can like Shizuka's Ina Bauer, but...um...um...Ok, that was a bad example.

    Mathman

  9. #39
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    I have never heard or seen Sasha's skating being described as "brittle". She is, after all, one of the most flexible skaters in the world today.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    I agree with Peggy and Dick and everyone else in the figure skating world that sees something special and unique in Sasha. Let me guess, who's wrong here? Peggy and Dick, with YEARS of experience in skating that none of us can begin to relate to, or some of you who just can't quite come to terms with Sasha's specialness because she is Michelle's direct competitor. Frankly, I think you all see what Peggy, Dick and the judges see, but you just refuse to acknowledge it.
    It is undeniable that Sasha has tremendous talent, but I wouldn't label her "the most talented skater in the world" as Peggy and Dick had done on numerous occasions. I respect them for their many years of experience in the figure skating world, but experience doesn't make their opinions facts.

    Actually, I find their commentaries during some of Sasha's programs to be quite comical. First we'd get a dose of "the most talented", "the best extension", "the most exquisite", and a variety of "first-rates". Then suddenly, we'd hear frustrated exclamations and disappointed whispers of "lack of concentration", "never a clean LP", "need to focus", "marred by all these minor mistakes", and "broke the spell". And at the end of Sasha's program, we are left to ponder statements of "a wonderful program, BUT...", "don't understand", "must be disappointed", "too talented to be having these mistakes", and Peggy's sigh of resignation "she did to herself again." Listening to their commentaries is like being on a roller coast ride of hyperboles riddled with contradictions.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    Yes, it was in response to Lavender and anyone else who refuses to acknowledge the essential beauty of Sasha's skating. You would have to be blind not to see it, or disingenuous. Take your pick. I didn't say Sasha was a perfect skater, but she IS a beautiful skater, and it is out there for everyone to see, period. It can't be argued to the contrary and be taken seriously. If there were all these other people out there who can deliver as awesomely a beautiful performance (yes, flawed but still beautiful) as Sasha can, I would love to know their names. You know Nymkf51, I really like the adult tone of people like Joesitz and RealtorGal who can appreciate all the skaters. That's why I post here. The joy of this site is that you can be, first, a Michelle fan and still acknowledge the very real qualities of the other skaters. Such as Irina's real courage in upping the ante while dealing with her own illness and her mother's illness. These things can't be denied no matter how much some people would like to do that. It is very refreshing that there is a place where things like this can be said and you won't have a 20 people telling you that your crazy. Only one or two.
    How strange. I didn't say Sasha wasn't exquisite. I just said that there were others like Mao....not Michelle. I think it's anyone's right to not like something.
    Last edited by lavender; 05-19-2005 at 11:31 AM.

  11. #41
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    Sasha's positions on the ice are beautiful, but her overall skating isn't in the same category. Even her arch admirer Peggy Fleming has commented that Sasha is so exquisite, and then she makes a mistake and the illusion is spoiled.

    Sasha has terrific spins and lovely moves in the field, but her jumps are insecure and her edging isn't as deep and controlled as it should be. It is possible to admire some of a skater's elements and yet not consider her overall skating to be top notch.

  12. #42
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    kyla ... I don't know how you can say something like "we see what the others see in her skating but won't admit it."
    First of all ... I LIKE Sasha. So does Lavender. You just seem unable to accept anything other than we worship at her feet. Talk about uber. Geesh!

  13. #43
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    I could watch Sasha all day long. One of the things that so impressed me about her is when I had the opportunity to go to Skate Canada and see her practice a couple of times and then skate her SP and LP. When she did her practice SP, Malaguana, it was so powerful, she got an immediate standing ovation. I think we have heard Peggy and Dick talk about leaving it at the practice. I just wonder how many of you have seen any of her practices? I also think that she lets a lot of you down when she isn't perfect and so you make comments about her. I don't care how she skates, I love watching her and others too.

    Dee

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman

    You can like Shizuka's Ina Bauer, but...um...um...Ok, that was a bad example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNT2012
    I have never heard or seen Sasha's skating being described as "brittle". She is, after all, one of the most flexible skaters in the world today.
    Flexibility and brittleness are not mutually exclusive. The three main criticisms of Cohen are that her edges aren't steady and deep, her jump landings are dodgy, and while she makes beautiful pictures on ice, she doesn't "connect the dots" artistically, which leaves a lot of people cold. Flexibility isn't a characteristic of edging or jump landings -- although it may impact the ability to go deep (where's Rgirl?) or be physically more difficult to attain them -- and doesn't have to impact the in-betweens.

    I love Cohen's skating. Do I wish she had deeper, longer edges -- although I think she's improved markedly in the last two years -- and deeper, steadier jump landings? Yes, but that would only make me love her skating more.

    But that doesn't mean anyone else has to love her.
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 05-19-2005 at 03:17 PM.

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