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Thread: Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    Bdreampixie,
    I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your coach. Sasha does not turn out at the knee. She's got internal tibial torsion (a turned in tibia), which makes that impossible. Sasha has great hip external rotation. She doesn't need to turn out at the knee. As you can see from the photos, Sasha's edges are as good as Michelle's and Irina's. What she lacks is speed. As for your coach's "dog peeing on a hydrant comment," plus his/her other incorrect comments about Sasha's spiral, it sounds as if your coach just doesn't like Sasha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancindiva
    Ummm first of all okay can you at least get the name right? I'm the one who said that about Sasha. And I'm sorry if you disagree with my coach, but really he doesn't have anything against Sasha except that her spirals are not as great as everyone makes them out to be. He is an excellent coach and judge and he knows what he is talking about. And, many coaches at my rink have made similar comments about Sasha's spiral. And no way are her edges as good as Irina's or Michelle's. There are a lot of things about skating that are subjective, but the angle of one's blade to the ice is not one of them, no is the ease upon which one maintains the edge. Sasha has exhibited several times in major competitions that she has problems with her edges.

    As for Sasha not turning out from the knee, YES SHE DOES! I've seen it many many many times! When you look at her spread eagles, her knee is not lined up over her toes, she's rotating out from actually just below the knee. Need me to dig out some pictures?
    I am sorry about getting the wrong name on the quote; I hope you can accept my apologies.

    As for your coaches and others comments about Sasha's spiral, which from the way your post was worded was what all I thought you were talking about. I don't know your coach so of course I'll take your word that s/he likes Sasha just fine. But as for her edges on her spiral--talking spiral only--IMO, her forward outside edge is as good as Michelle's, for FIE is much weaker than Michelle and Irina's, and Irina's edges on her spirals are the best of any skater I've ever seen in every respect: speed, angle toward the ice, and control. However, when you add in the variable of a 180-degree or near 180-degree unassisted leg amplitude with full extension, you change the entire center of gravity from a spiral that's at an amplitude of say 120-degrees, which is my eyeball guess of Michelle and several of the other top skaters. I say you have to look at the whole body, just as jump height affects how judges evaluate a jump even if a comparable jump has the same number of rotations. However, we may have to agree to disagree.

    As for Sasha turning out at her knee on her spread eagles, had you said that, I would have agreed. But most skaters do. Skaters train mostly with their hips in parallel position or slightly inwardly rotated during most of their skating, ie, stroking, jumping, basic footwork (rockers, mohawks, etc). Whereas ballet dancers train virtually everything with their hips turned out and as I'm sure you know, you can't really be a soloist or principal dancer with a great ballet company today unless you have 180-degree external rotation from the hip. But the only time skaters use external rotation hip rotation with their skates on the ice is in a spread eagle. Many skaters, even elite ones, can't do them at all. I'd say upwards of 90% of skaters use a combination of hip, knee, and ankle rotation in order to do a spread eagle and it's no crime. The knee does have anywhere from 3 to 5 degrees of safe rotation, meaning external rotation without risking injuring of the knee meniscus (cartilage) or ligaments. The amount of external rotation at the ankle is much more variable.

    The thing Sasha is able to do that most skaters can is use those few degrees of turn-out at her knee on her spread eagle while keeping her knee 100% extended, which for her is a few degrees hyperextended. As I said before, most skaters--and I'll add, most females, who tend to have less external hip rotation than men--bend their knee slightly in turning out the knee during the spread eagle. Bending the knee allows for additional external rotation. Michelle does this, which is not a criticism in the least; she's simply doing what Sasha and other top skaters do: Making the best of their anatomical limitations. I used Michelle because there's sure to be a photo of her doing a spread eagle; in fact i recall doing a more in-depth analysis of Michelle's spread eagle, which some people were criticizing, ie, "There are some moves some skaters just shouldn't do," and using the analysis to defend Michelle's SE. Also, just about every other female skater who does a spread eagle turns out at the hip, knee, and ankle. True, too much turn-out at the knee in a spread eagle is bad for the skaters knee. If the skater doesn't have enough rotation at the hip to get her most of the way there and needs more than 5 or 6 degrees of knee external rotation to achieve an SE, a good coach would take the SE would of the skaters MITF after a good year's worth of training had been made to improve the skater's hip rotation.

    As for Sasha, given her internal tibial torsion, the aesthetics of Sasha's spread eagle is, IMO, quite a feat. However, you'll also notice that she rarely does them, which I hope she continues. Given her anatomy, the SE still puts a lot of stress on her knees and ankles. Also, just for the record, many/some (I really don't know) have read the multiple posts in which I analyze and criticize Sasha's technical problems up the anterior and down the posterior. Sometimes I love her skating; sometimes I can hardly bear to watch it. With you being rather new, just FYI.

    The main skaters of a group of maybe 10 (I'm going off the top of my head) I've seen do SEs with 180-degree rotation from the hip are Brian Boitano (the best, IMO), Paul Wylie, and Ilia Kulik. The rest are men, too. I've always found it odd that men are the ones usually born with greater external hip rotation than women. You'd think that from an evolutionary POV, women could use it more for child bearing. There's probably a good reason, though I doubt most women in the throes of natural childbirth would believe it, lol.


    Anyway, we still may have to agree to disagree, but again, I thought you were saying Sasha turned out from her knee in her spiral, which as I said, she has no reason to and doesn't. Had spread eagles been specified, I would have agreed with you 100%--which is not a criticism. After all, I'm the one who thought Bpixiedreams wrote the post, plus you should see some of the goobers I've made, even worse than the ones you've already seen!

    Rgirl

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar
    The name you use for that spin is a derogatory sexual term.
    I am not the originator of that name . IIRC back in 2002 there was a contest at GS to name Cohen's spin. Beaver Cleaver received the most votes.
    Last edited by gezando; 06-25-2005 at 07:06 AM.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    You are right about that. I was using the word "pretty" in a different sense in my earlier post. To me, Sasha is pretty like a flower, or like a porcelain vase (to bring my thoughts all the way back to Joe's original intent in using the word "fragile" in the title of this thread.) ...... a skater's skating, not the features of her face, etc.
    Well just out of curiosity, since in that earlier post you said Cohen is the "prettiest" skater. She is not the only skater that is pretty (style wise) like a flower, Mai Asada, Katia are some other examples, so what makes Cohen in your opinion the prettiest (style wise ) among all the other pretty style skaters??

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    There is quite a debate among many physicians as to whether all physical problems, and the brain and brain chemistry is physical or at least physiologic, should be referred to as medical rather than separating them into medical, psychiatric, and psychological. Those for the use of the term medical for all physical problems feel the additional terms could be sub-terms for clarification in diagnosis, but in the general sense are just out-of-date semantics.
    Or it is the concept of set and subset. Illnesses in general is the set, and Medical illnesses, psychiatric illnesses are subsets. WHO put all illnesses under one huge ICD 10, and USA put psychiatric illnesses (the subset) in as separate classification system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    and also that the amygdala is also responsible for sexual urges and actions.

    It would have been better had I worded the sentence "...that the amygdala plays a role in human sexual feelings and actions." But it you want to read some literature for yourself, here's a start:
    amygdala sexual functions humans
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed

    amygdala human sexual feelings
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed
    what is the role of the amygdala in human sexual feelings?
    http://web.ask.com/redir?u=http%3A%2...f%2Bthe%2Bamyg
    These links do not work. BTW, when I said literature, I am referring to solidly scientific based, peer reviewed literature

    Causes of Sexual Dysfunctions
    http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...b1/lwelsh.htmlwhat is the role of the amygdala in human sexual feelings?



    This article talks about the overall picture, including the frontal lobe, temporal lobe and many transmitters and receptors. The amygdala is part of the temporal lobe, so it may be assoicated with sexual functions.

    Not exactly scholarly peer review material

    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    I promised you the last word
    You don't know me and thus don't know what promises my intimate relations have asked me to make nor what promises I've made to myself.
    I am just talking about what you are doing here in this thread. No one asked you to promise anything, yet you said "I promise you...."



    Gezando,
    Of course you can continue posting me if you want, but I will no longer respond.

    Rgirl
    [( I am leaving, shall post after Campbell) (I am returning for juuuuuusst one more word)] to power approaching infinity. It is a GS pre off season histrionic practice
    A red letter day on GS, if the announcement of leaving for a while (w/o returning for juuuuuussst once more) is indeed the last word in this thread, then off season begins
    Last edited by gezando; 06-25-2005 at 09:19 AM.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I got it from this Kurt Browning fan site:

    http://www.skate.org/browning/

    It says the picture was scanned from the Oct/Nov 1995 issue of International Figure Skating. I was not able to find out any more about it.

    I went to the IFS web site and clicked on "archives." But their "archives" only go back as far as June, 2005. Hey. wait a minute. This is June, 2005.

    So I Googled "Yamaguchi Browning Egypt 1995." I learned that the cultivation of lettuce (Lactuca sativa) began in dynastic Egypt, as we know from tomb drawings. But according to a 1995 study by Yamaguchi and Rubatzky (Kristi's new partner after Rudi G.), different strains of lettuce process vitamins A and C differently, which affects their resistence to the formation of lesions caused by tipburn as well as to cut-surface Browning and other physiological disorders.

    MM


    OMG...I fell on the floor (almost) laughing with this one!

    ETA: I'm just catching up on this thread and caught the pic of Sasha ...thanks...
    Last edited by emma; 06-25-2005 at 09:17 AM.

  6. #336
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    Loved the answer Mathman



    Isn't the internet great! You can learn all kinds of unexpected things.
    Last edited by mpal2; 06-25-2005 at 11:50 AM.

  7. #337
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    Talking about spirals...take a look at this picture of Irina's OE. Wow!

    http://www.theskateblade.com/events/...slutskaya2.jpg

    However, something just doesn't look "right" in this pic. And it's probably caused by the camera angle.

  8. #338
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    that pic is almost painful to look at, Irena looks almost like her leg is curving, which of course it can't

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    Well just out of curiosity, since in that earlier post you said Cohen is the "prettiest" skater. She is not the only skater that is pretty (style wise) like a flower, Mai Asada, Katia are some other examples, so what makes Cohen in your opinion the prettiest (style wise) among all the other pretty style skaters?
    Well, I hadn't really thought that much about it -- why does one thing strike a person as pretty, and something else, maybe not so much?

    First, to me, in the family of words that includes beautiful, etc., "pretty" has kind of a surface quality to it. A Grecian urn is pretty, but what's inside? People make fun of Sasha , calling her "Gumby," etc., but I think that the positions which her flexibility allows her to achieve as she glides along the ice are very pleasant to the eye. Like if I had a little figurine of a skater on my shelf, Sasha would be a top choice to show the gracefulness of the human body.

    Now, you guys are picking on me about "skate posing." But I do not dismiss the effect of a striking pose in any kind of performance art. I have seen many skating programs where the opening pose was the best thing about the performance.

    Some of my favorites posers:

    Sarah Hughes. Her opening poses were so hopeful, like the Little Engine That Could. "I think I can, I think can, I think I can, I think I can."

    Come Salt Lake City -- she could!

    Belbin and Agosto. "Hang on to your hat, folks, you ain't seen nothin' yet!"

    Michelle Kwan. Her opening pose says,

    "It's all right, Mathman. Here I am. I'll take it from here."

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Well, I hadn't really thought that much about it -- why does one thing strike a person as pretty, and something else, maybe not so much?

    First, to me, in the family of words that includes beautiful, etc., "pretty" has kind of a surface quality to it. A Grecian urn is pretty, but what's inside?
    You are still not answering my curious question why do you think Cohen is the "prettiest" skater (you clarified that you are talking about skating style) among all pretty skating style skaters, e.g. Yelena, Mai, Lucindah or Katia. BTW, if you don't think Yelena, Mai, Lucindah or Katia are pretty style skaters, name your own and do the comparision

    but I think that the positions which her flexibility allows her to achieve as she glides along the ice are very pleasant to the eye. Like if I had a little figurine of a skater on my shelf, Sasha would be a top choice to show the gracefulness of the human body.
    A figurine is still, not in motion which leads back to ice posing. IMHO what is pleasant to the eyes is the motion, and speed of the glide. Cohen's gliding speed is not top, and her blades are nosiy (review and listen to the Marshall tape) that makes her glides not pleasant to the eyes or ears. I have seen her gliding onto a gala performance in the Beaver Cleaver position

    Now, you guys are picking on me about "skate posing." But I do not dismiss the effect of a striking pose in any kind of performance art.Sarah Hughes. Her opening poses were so hopeful, like the Little Engine That Could. "I think I can, I think can, I think I can, I think I can."

    Come Salt Lake City -- she could!

    Belbin and Agosto. "Hang on to your hat, folks, you ain't seen nothin' yet!"

    Michelle Kwan. Her opening pose says,

    "It's all right, Mathman. Here I am. I'll take it from here
    It seems like the effect and impact of Sarah, B&A, and MK's poses on you are mainly emotional, spiritual , right? You talk about hope (Sarah), anticipation (B&A), and comfort (MK) So it seems artistically, these skaters achieve their impact through their ability to communicate a feeling to you. It seems like flexibility has nothing to do with it , right?

    So what exactly is the effect of Cohen's striking BC pose on you? Oh I remember, you told us (in the I spin poll) that was one of the highlights of your 2005 COI experience.

    Sorry, I have to disagree with your description of Sarah, Tanith, Ben, and Michelle as "posers" . They are top notch skaters, they skate i.e. have wonderful edges and speed. They are not posers, even though some of their poses are your favorite.
    Last edited by gezando; 06-25-2005 at 11:42 PM.

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