Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if i'm repeating. I'll just say that I disagree (repsectfully) with people who say she is JUST hyper-flexible, as if that doesn't take constant work, require strength, balance, concentration, timing, and let's remember skates are heavy too. And I think her posture, body line, and spins are really, really first rate and beautiful. But I also agree that her edges still need a lot of work, and people that see her live say she scratches the ice a lot (too much toe pick and flat), so clearly that would need much work....and then there is that something else: is it concentration, is it timing, is it nerve control i'm not sure...but the putting down a clean program. For the latter, I guess I do think of Sasha as somewhat Fragile (noting her physical strength)...something seems to rattle her in competition--but I also think Brittle the way I used to think of Maria B (not deep enough in the edge/knee). So...a little of both?

I do think that the last two Worlds were similiar for her...not in the medal she got per se, but in the way she was cleaner than ever (yes, with problems), and that maybe this last one was significant as Mzheng said in her standing up/staying vertical. That is a big deal for her, I think. And this year doing that with all the changes may really bode well for her future competitions; then again, like with so many other top (and amazing) skaters, we will really only know when the season unfolds.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
mzheng said:
. And don't forget we had 2 footed jumps queen as OGM.

Huh??? The most recent US OGM are Kristi, not a queen of 2 foot landing.Tara, did not 2 foot landing her jumps at all
Sarah Hughes did not 2 foot her landing her jumps, and at SLC she even fully rotated her jumps and 3/3., :biggrin: 7 triples fully rotated and no 2 foot landing .

Oksana 2 foot her triple toe at olys 1994. But with her balletic and dance qualities, I could see why judges rewarded her. (Cohen unlike Oksana is not balletic, Sasha is gymnastic instead) Oksana stayed vertical, Cohen's staying vertical percentage is not as high as Oksana's.
 
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mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
gezando said:
Oksana 2 foot her triple toe at olys 1994. But with her balletic and dance qualities, I could see why judges rewarded her. (Cohen unlike Oksana is not balletic, Sasha is gymnastic instead) Oksana stayed vertical, Cohen's staying vertical percentage is not as high as Oksana's.

So that's the point. Oksana two footed triples was accepted as the OGM. Nothing wrong with Cohen's double footed jumps were accepted as the Silver at the worlds. What's so unacceptable for Cohen? Huh??
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Sasha is a good skater and has become the top competitor to topple Irina. This is fact, imo. I am not a Sashadora, and I have not seen her to my liking since Cleveland Nats until Moscow Worlds. And, in Worlds she just skated without pushing herself. She deserved her silver medal and if it weren't for those Bielman positions I think she might have taken gold. for some reason the ISU considers the Bielman spiral at a +3 whether or not it is without pains, and a balletic spiral as +1 only if extraordinary. Of course, Sasha has trouble sometimes staying on edge but she did as far as I could see at Worlds. Irina, too, has those 3x3s and compiles an enormous amount of points on the TCS. Irina's PCS score are inflated, imo. She does nothing for me and never has. If Sasha does not up her Tech, Carolina will be the top competitor to topple Irina. JMO

Joe
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
mzheng said:
So that's the point. Oksana two footed triples was accepted as the OGM. Nothing wrong with Cohen's double footed jumps were accepted as the Silver at the worlds. What's so unacceptable for Cohen? Huh??

Huh?? I din't say Cohen's world silver was unacceptable, but I can see Fossi's point though. IMO, even Oksana 2 foot landing her triple toe, Oksana was able to win the OGM, b/c she was balletic, and danced on the ice. Oksana did not 2 foot any jumps in her world gold performance though. OTOH Cohen does not have Oksana's balletic qualities, or Irina's technical abiities, or Sarah Hugh's competitive mental toughness, therefore I can see that Cohen so far has been only good for world silver. Besides if I go with your theory of 2 foot and under rotated jumps are still standing up, then Oksana's percentage of stanidng up is much higher than Cohen's :biggrin:

BTW, mzheng, I don't know who you mean by an OGM as "queen of the 2 foot jump". During their competitive days none of the OGM were queen of the 2 foot landings. OTOH, if Cohen does not improve her jumping technique she maybe on her way to become a 2 foot jump landing royalty :biggrin:
 
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cianni

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Sasha

I have to agree with Joe on this one. Irina is Queen of inflated points and marks Sasha hasnt skated 2 perfect programs yet. Now where does that put the others.Even at Worlds all 3 programs were full of mistakes so Silver is a gift but then all the other skaters were making mistakes also. Lets not act like she was skating flawless programs. She was the best of a bad lot. Irina did skate a winning FS so that win was deserved.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Joesitz said:
gezando - Why does a skater have to be balletic? Why can't a skater be good at what she does?

Joe

I don't think a skater has to be balletic. F.S. is a competitive sports, IMO a skater who is athletic, and mentally tough jusually wins. Just look at Tara. :)
 
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jesslily

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
If Sasha really does not have deep and great edges, that's not her fault, it's rather her coaches' fault. Skaters like Sasha, along with many lower levels' who have elegant body line and great extention are so easy to hide their weak edges, and their pleasant look can easily let their coaches blind to see the major problem. My daughter is one of this kind of skaters.
 

dancindiva03

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
jesslily said:
If Sasha really does not have deep and great edges, that's not her fault, it's rather her coaches' fault. Skaters like Sasha, along with many lower levels' who have elegant body line and great extention are so easy to hide their weak edges, and their pleasant look can easily let their coaches blind to see the major problem. My daughter is one of this kind of skaters.

Sure lets blame the coaches again for Sasha's shortcomings. Sasha has been criticized for several years for her poor edges, I find it very hard to believe that if her fans noticed it, then her coaches could not have. If Sasha really does not have deep and great edges, then it IS her fault and she should work on it instead of disguising it with her gumby moves.
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
IIRC, didn't she make good strides with Robin on her edges and stroking? I think I remember Robin specifically working on that with her.
Of course, then she left Robin.
 

registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
dancindiva03 said:
Sure lets blame the coaches again for Sasha's shortcomings. Sasha has been criticized for several years for her poor edges, I find it very hard to believe that if her fans noticed it, then her coaches could not have. If Sasha really does not have deep and great edges, then it IS her fault and she should work on it instead of disguising it with her gumby moves.


Sasha has been criticized for the poor edges? By whom, some rabid anti-Cohen fans? Sasha's been awarded top marks by judges for her wonderful spirals and unmatched spins -- the best criteria to asses the quality of her edges. That COE spiral she did on the COI tour, straight into forward Charlotte on a curve -- that was a move to die for, amazing difficulty! C'mon folks, it's pretty easy to tell when a skater doesn't have a good control of the blade -- he/she would be stuck with the same kind of a spiral sequence for ages, and won't be able to master a half-decent spin.
 

jesslily

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Teaching edges and stroking is harder than teaching jumps. Since figures were eliminated and the jumps almost became the only signature of skating ability, you mostly see coaches grabing a cut of coffee leaning on the board to teach jumps. Only a few great coaches still following their students around the rink telling them how to use inside/outside edges. My daughter has skated for 8 years, and I only remeber a few times her coaches were on ice teaching her moves. Nowadays figure skating gradually became a dance+jump-on-ice sport rather than edges+jump-on-ice sport. Not many skaters have true good edges. For male skaters, I think Ryan Jahnke is the only one who has great edges. For lady skater, Dorothy Hamill has the edges, but she is a professional.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Cohen's appearance is fragile (slight built, very skinny), but the way she moves is quite powerful. But rather than "fragile" or "brittle", shallow is the word I'd use to describe her skating, and I don't just mean her edges.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Shine: "Cohen's appearance is fragile (slight built, very skinny), but the way she moves is quite powerful. But rather than "fragile" or "brittle", shallow is the word I'd use to describe her skating, and I don't just mean her edges."

That's it in a nutshell!
 

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
It Really Amazes Me...

It really amazes me that so many people who TRULY know figure skating (like Olympic Gold medalists) admire Sasha's skating tremendously. I mean what do they know??? Here we have experts that describe her skating as shallow and not balletic (you've got to be kidding). Gee, who should I believe? I think I will believe my own eyes and I wish in my dreams I could skate like Sasha.
 

Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
kyla2 said:
It really amazes me that so many people who TRULY know figure skating (like Olympic Gold medalists) admire Sasha's skating tremendously. I mean what do they know??? Here we have experts that describe her skating as shallow and not balletic (you've got to be kidding). Gee, who should I believe? I think I will believe my own eyes and I wish in my dreams I could skate like Sasha.


I was going to stay away from posting... but what the hey! I agree with you, and sometimes I think the opinion some people have on Sasha has little to do with her skating (not entirely, mind you, but to some extend). We have to call things like they are rather than cast some ironic phrases and double-meaning words. Some people like her (both her personality and her skating) and some people don't, and usually a small group just take away the good qualities Sasha's skating has just because they don't like her, for whatever reasons they may have (you are entitle to like whomever you want, of course). I am no expert, nor do I intend to be, but IMO Sasha does have grace and her own style. Can she improve? Of course! I think there are parts on Sasha's skating that need improvement, and as for her edges I have seen changes in the last 2 or 3 years, they don't look that shallow to me anymore. :)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
As I said before, the fragile adjective denotes a fine piece of sculptured porceline. It is not a put down of Sasha, On the contrary, it is praise.

Unless you've seen ballets, it is not the adjective to use with skating. There is such a thing as balletic line which was introduced by Tenley Albright many moons ago. Most skaters have balletic line nowadays and Sasha seems to accentuate hers more than others. Why not? It's one of many, many styles that figure skaters develop personally.

Joe
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Unless you've seen ballets, it is not the adjective to use with skating.
I agree in general, ballet is about dance and movement, not just lines. I don't think balletic applies to skating in general, OTOH, Oksana, and Healy do have wonderful movement on the ice, and that has nothing to do with lines. I also agree with you prior assessment (hope I am not misquoting you) that Cohen looks like a ballerina practicng and stretching at the barre. (not when she is moving or skating)

s such a thing as balletic line which was introduced by Tenley Albright many moons ago. Most skaters have balletic line nowadays and Sasha seems to accentuate hers more than others. Why not? It's one of many, many styles that figure skaters develop personally
Line is not the same as the movement. Many gymnasts have the line too. :biggrin:

kyla2 said:
Here we have experts that describe her skating as shallow and not balletic (you've got to be kidding). Gee, who should I believe? I think I will believe my own eyes and I wish in my dreams I could skate like Sasha.

No one said you should not gush drool and dream about Cohen. What is the use to throw a tantrum when others disagree with you :biggrin: Yeah Cohen is not balletic but gymnastic to some, so...That is just difference of opinion. In the real world ballerinas and gymnasts are different but equally valued. Dick called Sarah Hughes, Nam, and SC baby ballerinas, so if you take BUTTon as gospel truth, she is one among many. Cohen is one exquisite skater among many, that is also Lavendar's positiion earlier in this thread, and evidently that is not good enough for you, :p :rofl:
 
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gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Since figures were eliminated .... Only a few great coaches still following their students around the rink telling them how to use inside/outside edges. .. Nowadays figure skating gradually became a dance+jump-on-ice sport rather than edges+jump-on-ice sport. Not many skaters have true good edges. For lady skater, Dorothy Hamill has the edges, but she is a professional.
You have a point about figures training ->good edges. In addition to Dorothy, I will add Sato, Kristi, Bobek, the Kwan sisters. All these skaters have figures training. Recently at Marshall broadcast, I could hear the scratch scratch sand paper rubbing noise of edges of the skater that almost drowned out Paux des deux in the background.


shine said:
shallow is the word I'd use to describe her skating, and I don't just mean her edges.

I think some skaters have much more depth than others, and I agree Cohen does not even begin to approach the kind of depth that e.g. Kristi has (example her Passages of the Ink Dark Moon program, just pure edges, and emotional depth skated over a female voice reciting a Japanese poem). Katia's celebration of a life program, and Ota's Daphnis and Chloe are some other examples of depth
 
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