Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

nymkfan51 · Jun 11, 2005

Thanks Rgirl ... some brilliant insights, as usual! :thumbsup:

I will say just one thing about Sasha's record. By most standards, her competitive career has been very successful. The only failure (for lack of a better word), has been her inability to take advantage of several opportunities she had to win the big prize. Obviously she must have hoped to win a National or World championship by now. And given the fact that Michelle scaled back on her competing, and her choreography, the past few years ... my feeling is Sasha may have missed her best chance to do that (especially the National title). I expect we will see a different Michelle at Nats this year ... plus the onslaught of Kimmie, Emily, Bebe, etc. So I think things only get more difficult from here on in (and that goes for MK too!) The good thing for her is though, that she already has 9 titles.

This should be one heck of a season! Hang on everyone!!!

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 11, 2005

Hi Rgirl. Nice to read you again. First I want to say that the topic came about in two separate competitions. In Atlanta, the fan said 'brittle' meaning that she skated by-the-numbers. I presume he meant no flow, but there were others there who agreed. btw, this fellow is an ardent balletomane and, like me, sees a huge difference between figure skating and ballet and unlike me, he refuses to give anything to figure skating in terms of ballet moves.. Sometimes I wonder why he watches Nationals? He's not a fan of any skater.

My friend who happened to be in Portland and attended the Ladies Division event and did not know the skaters. I gave a little story about each one. When describing Sasha, I mentioned the 'brittle' thing. After the contest was over she said she thought Sasha was more fragil than brittle. What she meant was in the porcelain delicate sense-a compliment.

Interesting, and dumb on my part, I did not offer an alternative view but the GS posters came with their own so I felt better.

Joe

jesslily · Jun 11, 2005

Perhaps every skater has one or two weak jumps or just weak on spins or edges. Many skater are strong at flip and lutz and weak on salcow and loop. One reason contribute to this is since the figure is eliminated and jumps are almost the solo standard to judge every level's skaters, while flip, lutz, and axel get higher credits, so most skaters spend a lot of time practicing these three jumps from single to triple. Acturally salcow and loop the two edge jumps are very hard to master. They need a lot of strength on the belly and the waists.

mzheng · Jun 11, 2005

Rgirl, nice to hear you again. Please post more, don't be MIA in this coming olympic season.

Mathman · Jun 11, 2005

Rgirl, whatever the topic, your posts never fail to raise the level of the discussion.

Mathman :rock:

jesslily · Jun 11, 2005

If there are two style having been in Sasha's skating, I would rather say, one is herself style that she had/has it when she took/take from John Nicks, and the other one is TT's ice danceing style. Sasha's style with Mr. Nicks is more original, natural, and is really herself. Sasha's edges in the programs are more looked like she was trying to learn ice dancing basic edge when she was with TT. Losing a jump during early season is not big deal since the jump was not in her show program for the COI. But I haven't heard and read that she lost all her triples before she went back to Nicks. It's possible that the triple jumps were not technically right, but if it's true that she lost them all and John Nicks helped her get back and had that performance at national and world, Mr. Nicks is really great coach.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 11, 2005

jesslily said:
Perhaps every skater has one or two weak jumps or just weak on spins or edges. Many skater are strong at flip and lutz and weak on salcow and loop. One reason contribute to this is since the figure is eliminated and jumps are almost the solo standard to judge every level's skaters, while flip, lutz, and axel get higher credits, so most skaters spend a lot of time practicing these three jumps from single to triple. Acturally salcow and loop the two edge jumps are very hard to master. They need a lot of strength on the belly and the waists.

Absolutely, Jesslily - The edge jumps take a back seat to the toepick jumps. (except the axel which is entering on a forward edge). The skater needs a lot of oomph to get off the ice on edge jumps. There is no toepick to assist them. I also noticed that edge jumps are easily cheated before the skater enters the air for rotations. Just for fun, next time use your slomo on your tape and watch some skaters actually do a half to a three quarter arc on the ice before take off. The incomplete landings, of course, apply to all jumps.

Joe

jesslily · Jun 11, 2005

One factor out of many that made Sasha decide to come to east might be she could watch New York City Ballet rehearsal, or maybe walk in for a class here and there, maybe she could take private lesson from David Howard. But her time and busy training schedule might limited her to do so.

sk8m8 · Jun 12, 2005

I'm not saying anybody should like her skating based on numbers (Yeesh! That's like saying you should like a singer because his song is number one!)

Amen, Rgirl. Hey Macarena!

shine · Jun 12, 2005

Joesitz said:
I think the description of 'passion' in figure skating is the most overused description of a skater or moreso for a team. All those skaters with pain on their faces which are hailed as passion just don't get to me.

If one appreciates the human body, one can see more passion in body language than in superfiscial facial expessions especially when it is connecting to the music.

Joe

ITA!!!

Mathman · Jun 12, 2005

sk8m8 said:
Amen, Rgirl. Hey Macarena!

Rgirl said:
10 First
8 Second
6 Third
5 Fourth
1 Fifth

Obviously she's never won a World gold medal, but what I found interesting in looking at these results was the consistency of this skater who has gained such a record for inconsistency.

To me, it is not inconsistency from one event to another, it is the consistent "inconsistency" within each program that has Sasha's critics and fans alike tearing their hair. Sasha "consistently" goes out and hits four or five elements in a row with such textbook perfection that I start saying to myself, wow, how can anyone ever beat this girl? Then, saddly but dependably, on the next jump she falls and gives it all back.

Mathman

nymkfan51 · Jun 12, 2005

I think you're right Mathman. She has had very few completely clean LP's thus far in her career. I can't figure out what the problem is. Clearly she can do the jumps/moves. It just seems that usually there is a point in her program where she loses her concentration or something, just for a split second even ... and that's when disaster strikes. It has to be frustrating for her. I have always thought that the longer it goes on, the harder it will be to overcome.

76olympics · Jun 12, 2005

Joe-I knew what you meant by "brittle" and "fragile". IMHO, Mathman is right on. Sasha will skate so gracefully and nail several elements so well--then unravel after a mistake. It is rather reminiscent of Paul Wylie to me--another skater who could do it all when he was "on"--but -all too often--would lose his focus and nerve.

This is why I never tire of watching the Albertville performances. It was really so exhilarating to see him put it all together after rooting for him rather despondently for so many years. I think Sasha could do the same thing that he did. The question is whether she will. I like her syle and always have. She just has consistent problems with inconsistency!

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 12, 2005

One of these days, BAMB! Sasha will skate that elusive clean LP. the questions then arise:

Will it technically be better than Irina?
Will it outcharm Michelle?
Will it outshine a clean LP of Shizuka?
Will it override the popularity of Carolina?

Will it be a different story if Fumie, Miki, Susanna, Joannie also skate their best LP ever?

I could never answer these questions. I just think Sasha has a crack at the podium in Torino, and maybe gold.

Joe

mzheng · Jun 12, 2005

'Clean' program is not so important under CoP the same sense as under 6.0. Fall on jumps, just make sure making up the points in other eareas, it will be fine.

The key to win under the CoP during the competetion is the mentality 'never let the program go even a mistake is made'. In this sense I think Sasha is getting there.

nymkfan51 · Jun 13, 2005

Joesitz said:
I could never answer these questions. I just think Sasha has a crack at the podium in Torino, and maybe gold. Joe

Absolutely! :agree:

jesslily · Jun 13, 2005

Sasha, Irina, and Carolina have more chances to win medals at 2006, in my opinion.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 13, 2005

jesslily said:
Sasha, Irina, and Carolina have more chances to win medals at 2006, in my opinion.

At this point in time, I agree, but must they have clean LPs? and what if others have clean LPs? Racking up technical points is where the contest lies if everyone skates their best. And each fan has his/her own idea of who skates the best, and some fans are actually hoping that certain skaters do not skate their best.

Joe

nymkfan51 · Jun 13, 2005

I think it's a fine line Joe. Probably, one wouldn't have to have a "completely perfect" program to win, but the mistakes would have to be minor IMO. Especially at the Olympics.
Being this is going to be the first time the NJS is out there for all the world to see, it will be kind of sticky if someone who falls flat on their face wins the gold medal, over a perfect and inspired skate by someone else ... which is not too far-fetched an idea, given th way the system is set up. I am going to bet we have some sort of scandal/disagreement in Torino, how big I'm not willing to hazard a guess at.

euterpe · Jun 13, 2005

nymkfan51, I agree that there is almost certain to be controversy at Torino.

Think of Irina's Euro win this past season. She had a terrific SP, but her FS was a complete mess, and she not only won the gold medal (reasonable, because her SP was much better than the other skaters) but also the FS. If something like that happens at Torino and a skater wins with a disastrous FS, what happened at SLC will look like a Sunday School picnic.

Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

nymkfan51

Joesitz (RIP)

jesslily

mzheng

Mathman

jesslily

Joesitz (RIP)

jesslily

sk8m8

shine

Mathman

nymkfan51

76olympics

Joesitz (RIP)

mzheng

nymkfan51

jesslily

Joesitz (RIP)

nymkfan51

euterpe

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