Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

**jesslily** · 06-09-2005, 09:18 AM

Mastering the thiples thoroughly do take time...20s is not old for figure skating if you have learnd all you jumps at early teens and maintained that level over the years...Landing jumps in competition also needs natural strength and competition experience...Sasha started skating at 7 and moved up one or two levels each year, by age of 15 she was 2nd at national...basically she did not have some other ladies' experience...Sasha does have stamina problem...if she only skate long at pro-am, most likely she did clean...for a Olympic format competition, after short program she seems used up all the energy and not much left for the long...sure she'll fall a 3toe...in her book she talked about how Robin let her take it easy at qualifying round saving energy for the long...

**Joesitz** · 06-09-2005, 10:39 AM

OK for years I read that MK should retire she is too old. So now over 20 is fine. I always thought it would be.

Jessilly - I was in Dortmund and Sasha skated an exquisite QR. She then went on with an equally beautiful SP. What happened in the LP is totally inexplicable. It had nothing to do with Wagner; nothing to do with TT; nothing to do with Swan Lake. Whatever it was she was not herself. I don't know if that was ever looked into by anyone afterwards.

I thought her LP in Moscow was a big improvement in her overal presentation despite the flaws.

Joe

**emma** · 06-09-2005, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Joesitz

OK for years I read that MK should retire she is too old. So now over 20 is fine. I always thought it would be.

Jessilly - I was in Dortmund and Sasha skated an exquisite QR. She then went on with an equally beautiful SP. What happened in the LP is totally inexplicable. It had nothing to do with Wagner; nothing to do with TT; nothing to do with Swan Lake. Whatever it was she was not herself. I don't know if that was ever looked into by anyone afterwards.

I thought her LP in Moscow was a big improvement in her overal presentation despite the flaws.

Joe

My pop psychology view of Dortmund was that Sasha just knew that even a perfect performance - witht he version she had - would likely not beat Shiz that night, hence the deer in the headlights look on her face....who knows if that is true (i'm actually trying to remember now if Sasha actually skated after Shiz or if I made that up after the fact).

And, I totally agree that Moscow Long was an improvement, and I would just add that given the crazy season she had, that says a lot (to me at least).

**Kwanford Wife** · 06-09-2005, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by emma

And, I totally agree that Moscow Long was an improvement, and I would just add that given the crazy season she had, that says a lot (to me at least).

ITA... The impression I got was that because so many had pretty much written her off, she didn't have as much external pressure on her at Worlds... esp. if she watched a tape of her Nationals performance with commentary... The first time since her debut that Peggy & Dick weren't gushing over how wonderful she is... Also, Mr. Nicks seems to have a calming influence over her... But then, she always does well at the beginning of a coaching change... The true test will come next season ...

my 2 cents.

KW

**chuckm** · 06-09-2005, 11:36 AM

Arakawa's FS had nothing to do with Sasha's loss at 2004 Worlds. Sasha came into the Worlds FS having won both the QR and the SP. If she had skated flawlessly, she would have won the gold medal, and she did not need to top Arakawa technically: Shizuka's presentation scores left the door wide open for Sasha to claim the World Championship.

The problem is inside Sasha herself. We saw the precursor to 2004 Worlds at 2004 Nationals, where Sasha won the SP but faltered midway through the FS and had to settle for silver. When Sasha has a really strong chance to win, she can't handle the pressure and she's been unable to deliver the solid performance she needs to close the deal.

In Moscow, it was clear after Irina skated a sloppy performance in the SP but still won that segment anway, that Sasha had no chance to win the competition. Since she had no chance of winning, the pressure was off and Sasha's FS, though flawed, was much better than her 2004 Worlds FS.

**dwiggin3** · 06-09-2005, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Skate Sandee

When I think of brittle skating, I think Maria B. and those stiff knees of hers. Sasha is not a brittle skater. I think of Sasha as a powerful skater always on the edge of being slightly out of control.

Maria B...yes, she is brittle. Her knee's lacked the softness in her landings. Hmmm...this is a really interesting thread...

**hockeyfan228** · 06-09-2005, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by chuckm

Arakawa's FS had nothing to do with Sasha's loss at 2004 Worlds. Sasha came into the Worlds FS having won both the QR and the SP. If she had skated flawlessly, she would have won the gold medal, and she did not need to top Arakawa technically: Shizuka's presentation scores left the door wide open for Sasha to claim the World Championship.

I don't think she needed a flawless performance at Worlds 2004, or even a less flawed performance. I think if she had some of the fire she showed in the quali and SP, and didn't look like she was being sent to the executioner, she would have beaten Arakawa with unmatched pre scores. I even think she would have fended off Kwan.

**jesslily** · 06-09-2005, 01:16 PM

In her book Sasha talked about right before 2004 world qualifying round she suddenly could not do 3loop. So Robin told her just do a spiral for that part...so it looked like she did a clean program...I did not pay much attention about her mind set during the long program...if she really skated before or after Shuzuka, it could be very nervious...some skaters are very nervious to skate in front of their formal coaches...Sasha mentioned a few things in her book which can tell she has strong mind to handle unexpected situation, such as at 2002 world she lost her 3 lutz before long, at Olympics, right before long, she realized her tights was lost during the security check. It's amazing that she could handle these emergency. Overall I feel she is a really hard worker, and tried to learn every thing she could considering she started late, slower pace early years, still moved up to senior at 15...for years, even now at local competitions, judges still mainly check clean jumps and rotations to place competitiors, how many skaters and coaches have much extra time to focus or edges? Many skaters just took a few move lessons for a level since they need to pass the freestyle test of the level in order to compete.

**Mathman** · 06-09-2005, 01:36 PM

That's an interesting insight, Jesslily. Is it unusual for a top skater to suddenly wake up on the day of a big competition and discover that she can't do a loop or a Lutz? Or is this a case of nerves that strikes everybody now and then?

Mathman

**emma** · 06-09-2005, 02:04 PM

Please know that I DON"T KNOW WHAT sasha was thinking or not thinking...I was just saying that in 'pop phsychology' mode, she looked terrified in the Long...and after such an amazing and yes, feisty, SP, that deer in the headlights look was noticable, and on a personal note, it saddened me FOR HER.

and to clarify, I wasn't saying she couldn't have beaten Shiz that night (although, all would agree I think that Shiz really presented a challenge), I was just saying that it looked like she thought that it would take something so extradorinary, hence why she looked so scared, to win. Maybe she wasn't even aware of Shiz, and just nervous...maybe I'm wrong and she wasn't nervous all...I'm just saying what she looked like to me.

But again, I have NO idea what goes on in any athletes mind, and have no inside connections either.

I said awhile ago, though, that I thought that 2004 world's was a major breakthrough for her, precisely because of QR and SP, and because despite the not so great LP...it was still great enough to keep her on the podium...first time for her at worlds. And I said before and just again in this thread, that I thought she did another kind of breakthrough thing this year with her good presentation and determined 'I will stay vertical" attitude...good for her with that accomplisment! And, I do think she as of now she is major medal contender for next year (of course next year's grand prix's etc. will shed more light), and not just any medal...she has the goods for the gold.

**dwiggin3** · 06-09-2005, 02:36 PM

Is it possible that Sasha is afraid to win Nationals or Worlds?

Perhaps it's a subconscious thing.....Now that I think about it, I do think that there is a part of her that is afraid to win "the big one(s)" for any number of reasons.....

I can certainly appreciate the nerves though...I had them REALLY BAD when I was a youngster skating and that was one reason I was one of the best "practice" skaters in my club, but could hardly stay on my feet in comp. When I finished a program, I could not for the life of me remember anything that happened. It was like I had my memory wiped for 3 min....like I was on auto-pilot...but in a bad way. I'd go completely blank. It was a miracle that I even remembered my programs, so there was no surprise that I could never land any above an axle. I'd go completely blank. There was no thinking about the next element, pacing, preparing. Nada...

Perhaps now that I've decided to start skating again as an adult and the improvements in my concentration, maturity and medication will change that!

Darby

**gezando** · 06-09-2005, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by mzheng

Although a fan of MK myself, but in Sasha's defence she was just "not born in the right time" (in chinese). Had FS run like old ways, the old skaters retired after each Olympics cycles, she'd be two time US champion and at least one time World Champion..

LOL, if Tara was born one year later, then she wouldn't get to senior rank as fast, and MK would be 98 olys champ. If IS, and Mk decided to retire before olys 02, and if Sarah was born a year later, then Cohen would be olys champ 02. Oh well what if.

**gezando** · 06-09-2005, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by jesslily

...Sasha started skating at 7 and moved up one or two levels each year, by age of 15 she was 2nd at national...basically she did not have some other ladies' experience...

That is a history that is consistent with a good skater. But many here in this thread are claiming that Cohen is gods gift to skating the most exquisite, the prettiest blah blah, so by your reasoning she is one good skater among many good skaters. I believe Miki Ando started skating a 9, so Cohen started a 7 wasn't really that late. Tara started skating at 3 and 11 years later she was world champ. Michelle started at 5 and 10 years later, she was world champ.

About stamina problems, Yags had stamina problems too, and he was able to work around that, or TT helped him.

**gezando** · 06-09-2005, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Joesitz

OK for years I read that MK should retire she is too old. So now over 20 is fine.

The key word is "years" after years of gushing their favorite is the most exquisite, gods gift to skating, etc, maybe some fans suddenly wake up and realize their favorite is 20 now.

**Joesitz** · 06-09-2005, 05:12 PM

Fear of Success and Fear of Failure are two sides of the same coin. I think that was Sasha'a problem (think I say,not diagnose). However, it was not present in Moscow. Let's see how she handles it this coming season.

btw, has she mentioned anything about skipping the GPs? Anyone have an update on Sasha Cohen?

Joe