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Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
As I remember it, it was the SP in Lillehammer., and at the time, I had not seen much figure skating for quite a while. Anyway, Oksana did an imiitation of the 4 Act Swan Lake (both white and black swans) in, I think, 2-1/2 minutes. I smiled throughout. It was quite clever but it was not the Swan Lake one would see on the stage. She was darling as little waifs usually are, but she was not a ballerina. She was a cute figure skater with so much potential.emma said:
Why some posters go bananas over wanting figure skating to be just like ballet, is beyond me. They are two separate 'art' forms. What one should expect in figure skating, in my opinion, is good figure skating. It does not have to look like ballet. As I said before, figure skaters should have a strong 'turn out line' together with great flow on the ice. It can look somewhat like ballet viz a viz Oksana's Swan Lake, but even Oksana can change that look. While Kurt Browning can look somewhat like Gene Kelly, it doesn't mean every male skater should take up rythym and tap dancing and imitate that art form on ice. I'm sure you wouldn't want every dance team to imitate Rogers and Astaire as only Torvahl and Dean can.
Let's not go to Pairs, which unfortunately is becoming more and more exactly like nightclub Vaudeville Adagio numbers.
I've seen figure skating imitated in ballet and it is amusing but I wouldn't want to see more of figure skating imitated in ballet. Let's praise figure skaters for being original in their own art form.
Joe
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2004
DORISPULASKI said:
IMHO you are definitely NOT crazy! I think you hit the nail right on the head. And I think that Sasha's focus on all the "pretty poses" and not on the bigger picture is one of the main reasons that I dislike her, probably second only to the hype that she gets (and sometimes creates herself).
Maia Plisetskaya
Thanks for your responses Emma and Rgirl. It's always a pleasure "talking" to you both. O.k. Joe, do you remember Maia Plisetskaya, in my opinon the greatest ballerina of all time, with the possible exception of Pavlova (and I say possible). I have seen them all on tape and she is the definitve Swan as far as I am concerned, and in the opinion of many others. She was something apart from every other ballerina I have ever seen and I have seen many. For me, there is Maia and then everyone else. But I do agree that so much of this is subjective; one person's champagne is another person's milk (or poison). Having said that, sometimes I think a performance transcends the individual preference of the observer. For example, Oksana's Swan had moments of "ballet" and it was breathtaking because it was done on the ICE, Michelle's Lyra Angelica, Salome, Taj Mahal, Johnny Weir and everything John Curry ever did. Do Sasha's performances rise to that level all the time? No, but she has left me amazed at the beauty of her line, extension and grace. I look past her flawed landings because her position and rotation in the air is so lovely. Yes, I wish she was a less flawed skater, but I will always be grateful for what I get from her because her skating is so unique.
Thanks for your responses Emma and Rgirl. It's always a pleasure "talking" to you both. O.k. Joe, do you remember Maia Plisetskaya, in my opinon the greatest ballerina of all time, with the possible exception of Pavlova (and I say possible). I have seen them all on tape and she is the definitve Swan as far as I am concerned, and in the opinion of many others. She was something apart from every other ballerina I have ever seen and I have seen many. For me, there is Maia and then everyone else. But I do agree that so much of this is subjective; one person's champagne is another person's milk (or poison). Having said that, sometimes I think a performance transcends the individual preference of the observer. For example, Oksana's Swan had moments of "ballet" and it was breathtaking because it was done on the ICE, Michelle's Lyra Angelica, Salome, Taj Mahal, Johnny Weir and everything John Curry ever did. Do Sasha's performances rise to that level all the time? No, but she has left me amazed at the beauty of her line, extension and grace. I look past her flawed landings because her position and rotation in the air is so lovely. Yes, I wish she was a less flawed skater, but I will always be grateful for what I get from her because her skating is so unique.
Nicolo Piccini not Giacomo Puccini
There is more than just Italophiles, Austriaphiles or Germanophiles. Hit 2 birds opera and ballet with one stone, go for 18th and 19th century French operas with the mandatory staged ballet, so it is Piccini not Puccini
I received some complimentary tickets and attended a French opera a few weeks ago, according to the pre opera lecturer, Paris (not Vienna, not London, not Prague) was the opera capital in Mozart's time.Mathman said:PS. Emma, if "go to an opera" is on your list, the all-time best "first opera" to see is Mozart's Marriage of Figaro. In my wretchedly simple-minded and humble opinion, of course. I don't want to start any fights with the Italophiles!
There is more than just Italophiles, Austriaphiles or Germanophiles. Hit 2 birds opera and ballet with one stone, go for 18th and 19th century French operas with the mandatory staged ballet, so it is Piccini not Puccini
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- Jul 11, 2003
Maya Plitseskaya was one of those ballerinas you had to see whenever you could. She was something else - not my favorite but the most original touch on standard ballets I have ever seen. Have you read her biography? Incredible!kyla2 said:
My favorite ballerina was Alicia Alonso.
I agree Oksana's Swan had moments of ballet in quotes. It has also been done as a comedy on TV (Imogene Coca) and Cyd Charise did the Sleeping Beauty in quotes in the movies. So doing it on ice was a natural turn of events. It's at it's best on the stage,imo. I keep ballet and figure skating completely separate.
Up till I saw Sasha in Moscow, I would think her ballerina in quotes was more as Doris says above. All poses. She has good arabesques and excellent port au bras(sp) but then most skaters have that also. You may be thinking in terms of the best and that too, is very subjective. I happen to like Sasha's skating so her flaws don't bother me. Those flaws just keeps her from gold. - Not so important for me. I haven't enjoyed a gold medalist since Dorothy.
Joe
It's late, so get ready for the misspellings and left-out words, lol.
First of all, although you put it up for Emma, a big thank you from me too for the tape of Toller Cranston skating to "Vincent." Cranston was so wonderfully idiosyncratic and had such brilliant and interesting ideas about skating, I love any chance I have to watch him.
I hope this doesn't annoy you--it's not meant to--but Toller in his day actually reminds me of Sasha, at least in some ways. Sasha certainly doesn't have Toller's intellect and the only thing she's an autodidact in is costume design and cooking. But like there was with Toller, there is a great deal of controversy over Sasha's skating. With Toller, many people said his skating was too flamboyant, that the ornate moves with his hands, "odd" posture, "strange" positions, "female" style (read: homosexual), and the way he "threw himself" into the movement made his skating look strange, revealed poor technique, and made his skating unenjoyable.
I loved Toller, still do for everything else he does, but I can see how a basically conservative skating public--except those from Canada
--would be against Toller's extravagance. Back then, I didn't watch closely to see the quality of Toller's technique, but I do recall that he never quite got the job done in terms of consistent programs with clean jumps. However, he made up for it with me through his interpretation and utter dedication to his individuality as a skater, which were exactly the things many people I knew couldn't stand him for.
But to your point about Sasha making pictures and concentrating only on her line, I have to disagree. A person who is only concentrating on making pictures will look good in virtually every still photo that's taken, not the oppositie. It's with emphasis on movement that you get funny-looking still photos, even with high speed cameras. The transitions in much of figure skating are just plain funny-looking. For example, take a video and either pause it at random places or play it on super slow motion and you will see (I hope, lol) that on even the skaters you feel exhibit the best in terms of movement, line, technique, and feeling, that with the "slo-mo video" approach, they will lool absolutely contorted during even the simplest movements.
However, that doesn't mean I disagree with everything you say about Sasha. For one thing, I think the main things that are making her skating skating look as if it's about line and not as much about movement is that her line has always been strong whereas her movement transitions have increased and decreased in strength as she's gone through the TAT-RW years. Hope you'll excuse using myself as an analogy, but my first year training as a dancer away from home I did the dumbest thing I ever could have done for my technique, yet it seemed like the smart thing to do. Basically, I took three different technique classes everyday from teachers who each taught a vastly different style of technique. I thought this would enable me to do "anything." Instead, it was like putting too many ingrediants in a cake. My muscle memory kept crashing into different things I'd been taught, eg, tension/no tension; lift here/lift there, and on and on and on. At the end of the school year, I auditioned as I had the year before, for a particular dance workshop. There were eight levels of training, Level 8 being the best, which I'd been in the year before. This second year, when I thought I'd had all these great technique classes from all these great teachers, which was true, I ended up dropping to Level 7. It was as if everything I'd learned had cancelled each other out. I've also seen dancers go through the same thing.
Of course I don't know if this has happened with Sasha or not, but I notice a definite difference in her skating with every coach. She became more flowing with TAT, but lost her jumps and her edges didn't improve at all, plus she showed clear signs of overtraining and erratic training (TAT was known to work hard with her new top students at first and then leave them either alone to practice or with one of her assistants, which varied). With RW, her jumps were the strongest I'd seen them, her edges improved, and she even made progress toward getting an actual Lutz, which was ironic considering her coach was Robin "Flutz-Queen Sarah Hughes" Wagner. But she lost her flow, RW gutted her choreography so much and, at least according to Sasha, was so erratic in the changes she made that in 2004, she really did look like position-stroke-position-stroke, etc. partly because of the simplified choreography and partly because, at least IMO, her body never adjusted to the changes which gave her an uncentered, stiff look. Plus, I think her nerves were still a problem.
The problem I'm afraid she's having and is going to have with John Nicks is that while they have a compatible working relationship, Sasha is going to have too much control over the choreography for her programs. As I've said before, the best choreography she ever did was only performed once, which was TAT's black and white "Swan Lake" for Trophee Lalique, which she put together in only one week. It had figure 8 step sequence that was both difficult and gorgeous, and also included her second-position split jump, plus several other changes to the already more difficult version she did the week before. I don't know how she did it, except that she got sick for the following Cheesefest and was still not recovered two weeks later to skate even a scaled down B/W "Swan Lake" well enough to beat Fumie Suguri at the GPF, who definitely deserved that win. IMO, if RW had kept the Trophee Lalique version of "Swan Lake" and simply worked with Sasha on her jumps and edging as well as refining the choreography during the five months between November, when she first performed it, and Worlds, Sasha would have had a sensational program--if she kept her nerves under control. And I think with five months of practice including as many opportunities to perform it as RW could find, she could have done well with her nerves. But that's just my speculation. As we know, things went very differently, despite the silver medal.
As for Sasha's flutz, you'll get no argument from me there. I can see it on my TV from the apartment downstairs without my glasses. My opinion is that she's never lost points for it, so why spend all that time trying to fix it after all these years when her goal is not to fall? She's comfortable with the flutz, she's not losing points, why take the chance? IMO, it's as much the ISU's, judges' and coaches' faults as much as it is Sasha's, actually more so. Can you imagine a 21-year-old skater begging her coach to work on her Lutz under such circumstances? I don't think she's trying to get away with anything; I think her objective is not to fall.
As for seeing Sasha's skating as being like a model, I disagree, but to each her own. I don't see her as a ballerina either and I wish she'd dump it. Irina went through the same thing and I hope her program this past season signals she's dumping that opera-ballet business too. I actually see Sasha as Irina with line, that is, a power skater. I thought Sasha's best performance was of "Malaguena" at '04 Worlds when she really had the experience, technique, and confidence to power through it. The Spanish style is very percussive, but also allows for long edges in segments such as the spiral, so it suits her very well. But there are endless other pieces of music that would enable her to do the same thing. The "Nutcracker Pas de Deux" certainly was not one of them.
Finally, I hope you know Doris that if you're crazy, then I'm crazy. Of course we both know many people will agree, especially about me, lol.
Hugs,
Rgirl
First of all, although you put it up for Emma, a big thank you from me too for the tape of Toller Cranston skating to "Vincent." Cranston was so wonderfully idiosyncratic and had such brilliant and interesting ideas about skating, I love any chance I have to watch him.
I hope this doesn't annoy you--it's not meant to--but Toller in his day actually reminds me of Sasha, at least in some ways. Sasha certainly doesn't have Toller's intellect and the only thing she's an autodidact in is costume design and cooking. But like there was with Toller, there is a great deal of controversy over Sasha's skating. With Toller, many people said his skating was too flamboyant, that the ornate moves with his hands, "odd" posture, "strange" positions, "female" style (read: homosexual), and the way he "threw himself" into the movement made his skating look strange, revealed poor technique, and made his skating unenjoyable.
I loved Toller, still do for everything else he does, but I can see how a basically conservative skating public--except those from Canada
--would be against Toller's extravagance. Back then, I didn't watch closely to see the quality of Toller's technique, but I do recall that he never quite got the job done in terms of consistent programs with clean jumps. However, he made up for it with me through his interpretation and utter dedication to his individuality as a skater, which were exactly the things many people I knew couldn't stand him for.But to your point about Sasha making pictures and concentrating only on her line, I have to disagree. A person who is only concentrating on making pictures will look good in virtually every still photo that's taken, not the oppositie. It's with emphasis on movement that you get funny-looking still photos, even with high speed cameras. The transitions in much of figure skating are just plain funny-looking. For example, take a video and either pause it at random places or play it on super slow motion and you will see (I hope, lol) that on even the skaters you feel exhibit the best in terms of movement, line, technique, and feeling, that with the "slo-mo video" approach, they will lool absolutely contorted during even the simplest movements.
However, that doesn't mean I disagree with everything you say about Sasha. For one thing, I think the main things that are making her skating skating look as if it's about line and not as much about movement is that her line has always been strong whereas her movement transitions have increased and decreased in strength as she's gone through the TAT-RW years. Hope you'll excuse using myself as an analogy, but my first year training as a dancer away from home I did the dumbest thing I ever could have done for my technique, yet it seemed like the smart thing to do. Basically, I took three different technique classes everyday from teachers who each taught a vastly different style of technique. I thought this would enable me to do "anything." Instead, it was like putting too many ingrediants in a cake. My muscle memory kept crashing into different things I'd been taught, eg, tension/no tension; lift here/lift there, and on and on and on. At the end of the school year, I auditioned as I had the year before, for a particular dance workshop. There were eight levels of training, Level 8 being the best, which I'd been in the year before. This second year, when I thought I'd had all these great technique classes from all these great teachers, which was true, I ended up dropping to Level 7. It was as if everything I'd learned had cancelled each other out. I've also seen dancers go through the same thing.
Of course I don't know if this has happened with Sasha or not, but I notice a definite difference in her skating with every coach. She became more flowing with TAT, but lost her jumps and her edges didn't improve at all, plus she showed clear signs of overtraining and erratic training (TAT was known to work hard with her new top students at first and then leave them either alone to practice or with one of her assistants, which varied). With RW, her jumps were the strongest I'd seen them, her edges improved, and she even made progress toward getting an actual Lutz, which was ironic considering her coach was Robin "Flutz-Queen Sarah Hughes" Wagner. But she lost her flow, RW gutted her choreography so much and, at least according to Sasha, was so erratic in the changes she made that in 2004, she really did look like position-stroke-position-stroke, etc. partly because of the simplified choreography and partly because, at least IMO, her body never adjusted to the changes which gave her an uncentered, stiff look. Plus, I think her nerves were still a problem.
The problem I'm afraid she's having and is going to have with John Nicks is that while they have a compatible working relationship, Sasha is going to have too much control over the choreography for her programs. As I've said before, the best choreography she ever did was only performed once, which was TAT's black and white "Swan Lake" for Trophee Lalique, which she put together in only one week. It had figure 8 step sequence that was both difficult and gorgeous, and also included her second-position split jump, plus several other changes to the already more difficult version she did the week before. I don't know how she did it, except that she got sick for the following Cheesefest and was still not recovered two weeks later to skate even a scaled down B/W "Swan Lake" well enough to beat Fumie Suguri at the GPF, who definitely deserved that win. IMO, if RW had kept the Trophee Lalique version of "Swan Lake" and simply worked with Sasha on her jumps and edging as well as refining the choreography during the five months between November, when she first performed it, and Worlds, Sasha would have had a sensational program--if she kept her nerves under control. And I think with five months of practice including as many opportunities to perform it as RW could find, she could have done well with her nerves. But that's just my speculation. As we know, things went very differently, despite the silver medal.
As for Sasha's flutz, you'll get no argument from me there. I can see it on my TV from the apartment downstairs without my glasses. My opinion is that she's never lost points for it, so why spend all that time trying to fix it after all these years when her goal is not to fall? She's comfortable with the flutz, she's not losing points, why take the chance? IMO, it's as much the ISU's, judges' and coaches' faults as much as it is Sasha's, actually more so. Can you imagine a 21-year-old skater begging her coach to work on her Lutz under such circumstances? I don't think she's trying to get away with anything; I think her objective is not to fall.
As for seeing Sasha's skating as being like a model, I disagree, but to each her own. I don't see her as a ballerina either and I wish she'd dump it. Irina went through the same thing and I hope her program this past season signals she's dumping that opera-ballet business too. I actually see Sasha as Irina with line, that is, a power skater. I thought Sasha's best performance was of "Malaguena" at '04 Worlds when she really had the experience, technique, and confidence to power through it. The Spanish style is very percussive, but also allows for long edges in segments such as the spiral, so it suits her very well. But there are endless other pieces of music that would enable her to do the same thing. The "Nutcracker Pas de Deux" certainly was not one of them.
Finally, I hope you know Doris that if you're crazy, then I'm crazy. Of course we both know many people will agree, especially about me, lol.
Hugs,
Rgirl
DORISPULASKI said:
GEZANDO: I absolutely don't think it was funny for Gauguin to spread syphilis to the young teenage girls. I was speculating maybe the painting gods were punishing Paul Gauguin for that and chose to bless V Gough instead. (I prefer Van Gough to Gauguin) I put the smiles after Van Gough's more substances, b/c I thought the baseball players are not the only ones who know how to use substances to get an edge. Who knows maybe Vicent's heightened creativity was secondary to the activation of his dopamine and GABA pathways (reward / pleasure final common pathway for cocaine, amphetamines, heroin etc) in the ventral tegmental area of his brain.Rgirl said:
RGIRL The "smiling" emoticons looked to me like "laughing" ones--sorry if I got that wrong--and it seemed they applied to the part about Gaugin spreading syphilis to teenage girls as well. That's why I said "I don't see what's so funny..." BTW, if the painting or any art gods were going to punish Paul Gauguin for spreading syphilis by making him not as "great" as Van Gogh--like you said, a matter of opinion, although I too prefer Van Gogh--the gods didn't do a very good job, not only with Gauguin and Van Gogh but with countless artists, composers, musicians, and writers throughout the centuries. Many absolute infidels had brilliant careers in their day and continued to be placed among the pantheon. Besides, older white men having sex with young girls in Tahiti, right or wrong, was accepted by 19th Tahitian culture, as long as the white men supported any children brought about by the unions. Though OTOH, Tahitians didn't know syphylis until white men brought it there--and Gauguin sure wasn't the first.
Re: Theo vs. Vincent Van Gogh as painter
GEZANDO: Sorry, I meant Vincent not Theo.
RGIRL No apology needed. We all make mistakes.
GEZANDO:: Ancestors??
RGIRL: As I said, we all make mistakes.
I meant descendants. Even though Vincent was childless, Theo had two children. In fact, Theo's great-great-great-great-great-grandson (I think it's that many greats) was murdered in Amsterdam on Nov. 2, 2004. If interested, do a Google search under "Theo Van Gogh murdered 2004."GEZANDO: OK, was I disagreeing with you on that?Rgirl said:
RGIRL Perhaps it's just your style of writing--no criticism intended--but I often find it very confusing. Nor is this an attempt to get out of answering your question? As I said above, I wasn't sure by your "
Theo van Gough vs. Paul Gauguin" if you meant it as a joke comparing Van Gogh to Gaugain or that using Van Gogh and Gauguin as a comparison to figure skating was ridiculous. Why would I be able to tell from nothing more than two ROFL emoticons and "Theo Van Gogh vs. Gauguin"? Further, when you discussed substance abuse and syphilis, I didn't know what in my post you were referring to. I didn't know if you were disagreeing with me, talking about a different subject, or what. So I figured I should just try to clarify myself.
GEZANDO: Bipolar disorder is an illness just like any other illness that have biological (genetic) component. I am just stating that some experts think he had bipolar disoder. He might or might not. Definitely substance abuse and neurosyphilis can also present with mood swings. Anyway, if he had bipolar disorder, more credit to him for creating paintings in the midst of sufferings.Rgirl said:
RGIRL Again, I think I get confused by your style of writing, which again is not a critique. We all get tired or just don't write what we mean to say for a variety of reasons sometimes. Plus I do realize English is not your first language and anybody who can write and speak fluently in more than one language has my utmost respect for that. So absolutely no critique for that. But to clarify where I had the problem, if you care, lol: For me, mixing sentences that have to do with behavior that you've made clear you see as immoral--eg, syphilis, substance use--with sentences that have to do with diseases one has no control over made me wonder if you were equating the two as immoral or not. I'm not saying you were; I'm just saying I was confused by it. So I just put in a line saying "Vincent could not help his bipolar disorder."
GEZANDO: Sorry, AIP is acute intermittent poryphyria, a disorder of heme biosynthesis, characterized by a triad of colicky abdominal pain, polyneuropathy, and psychosis. So whether he cut off his ear b/c of psychosis related to AIP, or substances or bipolar, we do not know. IMO people who suffer from mental illness / psychiatric problems need compassion and vigorous research and better treatment. IMO poeple who tried to insult others by hinting that they have "psychiatric" problems are :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:Rgirl said:
RGIRL Just to bring up an example, albeit a rather nitpicky one: When you say, "IMO people who tried to insult others by hinting that they have "psychiatric" problems are :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:" I'm not sure if you're referring to something in my post, someone else's post, or what, since the first sentence, "IMO people who suffer from mental illness / psychiatric problems need compassion and vigorous research and better treatment," says it all. To add, "IMO poeple who tried to insult others by hinting that they have "psychiatric" problems are :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:" seems to have nothing to do with the issue at hand, which makes it seem, at least to me, as if you may be referring to something someone said in a post. Maybe you're just trying to be clear; I'm just trying to say the way your writing style might be misinterpreted by some people. Doesn't mean diddley that you should change it, of course.
GEZANDO CONT.: Comorbidity of bipolar disorder, substance abuse is unfortunate, I believe fortunately majority of bipolar sufferers do not abuse substance (which can complicate their recovery)
About ADHD, and bipolar disorder. It can offer a challenge for the pediatricians to figure out the 2, b/c there are similar symptoms. Some kids are misdiagnose one for the other. If Vincent indeed had ADHD then more power to him, for holding his attention enough to finish the paintings. I personally do not believe he had ADHD.
RGIRL Thanks for the explanation. Now I got it. BTW, as I'm sure you know, it's well-established that Van Gogh had some sort of medical problem that affected his mental state, so great power to him for surviving as long as he did with whatever he had and creating as much as he did. An interesting quote, at least to me, by Vincent Van Gogh is:
"I can very well do without God both in my life and in my painting, but I cannot, suffering as I am, do without something which is greater than I am, which is my life, the power to create."
-- Vincent Van GoghVan Gogh Quote
Re porphyia, have you ever seen "The Madness of King George"? I'm sure you know King George had porphyia (I'm don't know what kind) and with the medical knowledge at the time, I found it fascinating, and sad, to see how the royal doctors tried to deal with something they had no idea how to deal with as well as all the political intrigue between those in the king's court who wanted the people to think the king was crazy and those who tried to keep his illness a secret. Of course it's fiction based on fact, but still good stuff. Great cast, and though medically interesting, not the greatest movie, IMO.
Also, a friend of mine had what was eventually diagnosed as autoimmune porphyria after she was diagnosed with lupus. Fortunately she only had it once and had no mental symptoms. She told me that one morning she felt "a little funny" when she urinated and looked in the bowl to see purplish-blue. I remember her saying, "You expect to see a lot of colors come from your body, but not something that would come out of a pen!" She was also fortunate in that it went away by itself.
So, done now?
Rgirl
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Not only do ITA, I dig it! Love the description of the Denise Bielmann style as being feminine power with the accent on feminine.Joesitz said:
I sure wish I could have been in Moscow. Although Sasha looked more relaxed during her LP, the improvement in her being into the music didn't come across well on TV, at least not to me. I would have liked to have see that. Hopefully she'll keep it up.
Rgirl
I keep meaninig to thank you, even though you're the sex that's not perfect (see your Joe E. Brown quote--greatest last line in a movie ever), as well as Hockeyfan, for explaining that incredibly crucial bit of information about the placements. I kept wondering why Dick Button would say at certain World championships how "Anythng can happen! The scoring is so mathemetically complex nobody knows right now!" just before the last skater's scores were about to be announced and it looked like it would easily either be A, B, C, or B, A, C. For example, 1996, when it ended up Todd Eldredge 1st; Ilia Kulik 2nd; and Rudi Galindo 3rd, with Kulik skating last, and very well, Uncle Dick was just beside himself with "Oh, the mathematics of it all! You know, if Kulik knocks Todd to second, that could mean Galindo would be off the podium and Stojko would take the bronze! Oh, it's all too much!" I remember thinking, "What am I missing?" If Ilia wins, then it's Todd second and Rudi third, right?"Mathman said:
But now, finally, with the perfect help of the imperfect Mathman and either the perfect or not Hockeyfan (don't know your gender, HF), almost 10 years later, I GET IT!
I GET IT! I GET IT! I GET IT!
Okay, I don't get what Joe E. Brown got from Jack Lemmon, but I don't think I'd want that.
Well, so much for the OBO is easier to understand reasoning. The OBO pretends it's easier to understand than the NJS, but the OBO's a liar!
Oh, hamburgers, as Butters would say, now I'm gonna get grounded!
Rgirl said:
Well, duh. As I said in my post, I was just trying to point out that Sasha has an overall very consistent record and that people, most of whom tend to dislike Sasha and/or her skating have made entirely too big a deal out of her lack of perfect seven triple programs, which she did achieve at this year's Worlds. But as District Attorney, here's my closing statement on the subject:Mathman said:
The triple jump era for ladies started in about 1981 with Elaine Zayak. I don't know every US ladies champion since Elaine, and the list of these champions is surpisingly hard to find on search engines, at least for me. Anyway, we know most of them: Roslynn Sumners, Debi Thomas, Jill Trenary (THANK YOU, GRGRANNY
!), Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan, Nicole Bobek, and Michelle Kwan x 9. Please add anyone I've left out since 1981. The point is, the only skater in this group who had anywhere near the consistency that Michelle had had was Kristi Yamaguchi, and she only competed as an eligible singles skaters for I believe four years, winning Nationals three times, Worlds twice, and the '92 Olympics before turning pro. As an eligible, Kristi was the first to execute a 7 triple program including a 3/3, but again, this was only over a period of about four years and she didn't skate at that level until the last two years of her eligible career. While Kristi maintained a new level of difficulty and consistency during pro competitions in the mid-90s, the skaters were still only required to do four or five jumps, including a 2Axel. This is not to take anything away from Kristi or any of the other US Champions. I'm just trying to put their records into perspective.Roslynn Sumners was consistent, but while she competed the ladies' LPs still consisted of three to four ttriples and the rest doubles, including the 2Axel. Debi Thomas was the first to compete with 6 triples including a 3/3 combo. Debi had a lot of trouble with consistency and though was expected to win or at least have a close competition with Katerina Witt, Debi's nerves got to her and she ended up third. Nicole Bobek only won one US title and her problems with consistency are sadly legendary.
Nancy Kerrigan won an Olympic bronze in '92, US titles in '93 and '94, and a controversial silver at the '94 Olys--controversial because many thought she should have won gold. Yet up to her '94 Olympic LP, Nancy was one of the most inconsistent skaters ever to win two Olympic medals. Her '92 Olympic LP for which she won the bronze pretty much fell apart in the second half, making her strong showing in the SP and everybody else's poor showings in the LP crucial in enabling her to win the bronze. Nancy's meltdown from 1st after the SP to 5th after the LP at the '93 Worlds became infamous in figure skating. However she more than made up for it with her '94 Oly LP in which her only mistake was a double flip but one that also included a textbook perfect 3toe/3toe. Other than the '94 Olys, Nancy had never skated both a clean short and clean long during her eligible career of six years. Nancy was also 24 when she won her '94 Oly silver.
Then we come to Michelle who, IMO, is a once in lifetime consistent skater. I'll also include Sarah Hughes who, even though she didn't win a US title won the '02 Oly gold and was a very consistent skater. Sarah had problems with her skating, eg, flutzing, poor line, mediocre speed, and what some/many felt was a lack of grace, but that girl simply never fell on her jumps. Okay, I'm sure she did sometime, but I'm just emphasizing the point. And whether she underrotated them or not, at the Olympics she was the only ladies skater who came anywhere near completing two 3/3s in the context of a program wa difficult as she had.
The problem I have with people's attitudes towards Sasha is that if she doesn't skate most of her programs as consistently as Michelle or Sarah in terms of jumps, no matter what else she does, she's the perennial "problem child," "another Nicole Bobek," which I find ridiculous. Even when she does skate a 7-triple program in conjunction with a mistake free and excellent short. at least on GS I'd say the majority of those who post focus on other things they find negative: She doesn't connect to the audience; her blades scratch; she doesn't have good edging; she flutzes (most US skaters except Michelle do); she poses--I'm sure we're all familiar with the many criticisms she gets.
So once again, the reason I listed her placement in international competion over the last three years is (a) to point out that she is on the podium or first for 3/4s of those competitions and that's not counting Nationals and (b) except for Irina during the years she was healthy, no other skater in the world even comes close to Sasha's record since '01/02. The only other skater in the World who had a record better than that is Michelle when she was doing the GPS. Except for Irina this year, no other skater in the world even comes close to Sasha's record since '01/02.
I realize none of this will prompt anyone to reconsider the way they see Sasha, and perhaps it shouldn't. OF COURSE, I realize Sasha has a number of technical problems. But poor technique is not the same as just not liking a skater's style. Sasha does not have poor technique. She has technical problems in certain areas, but technically, overall she is an excellent skater. It's unfortunate that one of the areas she was technical problems in is certain jumps, but unless she's been sick or injured, she's never missed more than one jump in her LPs.
As I said, I know this won't affect anyone's opinion of Sasha and it probably shouldn't. However, I would like to see people evaluate Sasha based on facts insiead of generalizations such as "she's a butt-slider" or "so-and-so kicked her butt." And if people just don't like the way she skates, say so--DorisPulaski is great at separating technique from personal opinion, just as an example.
Anyway, I'm glad you brought it up, Mathman. I think it's a good subject to discuss rationally--or as rationally as figure skating discussions get, lol. You're still the best Mathman on GS and as such, I, as DA, Judge, and jury, acquit you on all charges, even though there weren't any in the first place. :thumbsup:
And now I'm going into the basement and play "Silence of the Lambs" with Cartman for the rest of the summer. "It rubs the lotion on its skin or it gets sprayed with the hose."
Except for one last thing.
Mathman, you imperfect gender, you. You know ding dang well I never said Michelle's skating sucked. And if you ever say that again, I'm getting Stan Marsh's gay dog (as played by George Clooney) to come over and lick you till the next solar eclipse.Mathman said:
And gol darn hamburgers, I don't care if I get grounded!
Bye till Campbell's! Although I may re-post "War and Pairs" for Emma as well as my post, if I have it, where Mathman clains I say Michelle's skating sucks. Liar, liar, cosmos on fire!
Rgirl
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Rgirl said:
Well, maybe this is one of the reasons I'm liking the NJS....see, while this is a great explanation, I still don't get it :no: I mean I sort of do, but I don't (like, I couldn't explain it to myself or someone else, I can just sort of follow along when someone else does). But, galindo was on the podium, right?
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Off topic for a sec -- I'm a she.
Emma--Galindo won the bronze in '96, rightyo
Hockyfan--Ah, another member of the perfect gender. No wonder you had to explain to MATHman how the OBO system worked.
Time for summertime--So long, folks! Don't worry, Emma--I won't forget you and "War and Pairs" and World Pairs '99.
Rgirl
Hockyfan--Ah, another member of the perfect gender. No wonder you had to explain to MATHman how the OBO system worked.
Time for summertime--So long, folks! Don't worry, Emma--I won't forget you and "War and Pairs" and World Pairs '99.
Rgirl
#256 approaching 300
Rgirl, I believe you threw in your line before I talked about the overlap symptoms of bipolar d/o., substance abuse and neurosyphilis.
I thought your line was a response to my statement, according to the experts Van Gough probably had bipolar disorder, and AIP
Rgirl: Vincent couldn't help his bipolar disorder and I don't know what you mean by AIP but I do know Vincent is thought by those physicians today to have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
In response to your line I said, Bipolar disorder is an illness with biological (genetic) component Then I said Vincent might or might not have bipolar. Definitely (the disease of ) substance abuse and (the disease of ) neurosyphilis can present with (the symptoms) of mood swings.
Rgirl: For me, mixing sentences that have to do with behavior that you've made clear you see as immoral--eg, syphilis, substance use--with sentences that have to do with diseases one has no control over made me wonder if you were equating the two as immoral or not. I'm not saying you were; I'm just saying I was confused by it. So I just put in a line saying, "Vincent could not help his bipolar disorder."
Bipolar d/o, substance abuse and neurosyphilis are diseases (not behavior), the first 2 are associated with genetic components the third is caused by a little spirochete. I was not mixing diseases with behavior. I was talking about Vincent might not have bipolar (an illness characterized by the symptoms of mood swings), if his mood swings were caused by substances or neurosyphilis . I was talking about the symptom (overlap) of these diseases. IMO it is not that different from your description of your friend's illness - autoimmune porphyria and her symptom of colorful urine
I never described syphilis (a disease) or substance abuse (a disease) as immoral. By definition a disease is a biological / pathological process.
Glad you brought up your amygdala. It is interesting to see posters bring up their experience (from shingles to amygdala). Experts believe that a healthy amygdala is essential for the proper modulation of fear and anxiety. I speculate that athletes like Tara and Horry must be blessed with amazing amygdala since they seem to be fearless in controlling their anxieties. OTOH athletes who are known be mentally fragile, may not be as fortunate as Tara re: of their amgydala function
Rgirl, I believe you threw in your line before I talked about the overlap symptoms of bipolar d/o., substance abuse and neurosyphilis.
rgirl said:
I thought your line was a response to my statement, according to the experts Van Gough probably had bipolar disorder, and AIP
Rgirl: Vincent couldn't help his bipolar disorder and I don't know what you mean by AIP but I do know Vincent is thought by those physicians today to have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
In response to your line I said, Bipolar disorder is an illness with biological (genetic) component Then I said Vincent might or might not have bipolar. Definitely (the disease of ) substance abuse and (the disease of ) neurosyphilis can present with (the symptoms) of mood swings.
Rgirl: For me, mixing sentences that have to do with behavior that you've made clear you see as immoral--eg, syphilis, substance use--with sentences that have to do with diseases one has no control over made me wonder if you were equating the two as immoral or not. I'm not saying you were; I'm just saying I was confused by it. So I just put in a line saying, "Vincent could not help his bipolar disorder."
Bipolar d/o, substance abuse and neurosyphilis are diseases (not behavior), the first 2 are associated with genetic components the third is caused by a little spirochete. I was not mixing diseases with behavior. I was talking about Vincent might not have bipolar (an illness characterized by the symptoms of mood swings), if his mood swings were caused by substances or neurosyphilis . I was talking about the symptom (overlap) of these diseases. IMO it is not that different from your description of your friend's illness - autoimmune porphyria and her symptom of colorful urine
I never described syphilis (a disease) or substance abuse (a disease) as immoral. By definition a disease is a biological / pathological process.
Glad you brought up your amygdala. It is interesting to see posters bring up their experience (from shingles to amygdala). Experts believe that a healthy amygdala is essential for the proper modulation of fear and anxiety. I speculate that athletes like Tara and Horry must be blessed with amazing amygdala since they seem to be fearless in controlling their anxieties. OTOH athletes who are known be mentally fragile, may not be as fortunate as Tara re: of their amgydala function
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gezando said:
OK, then.
Don't mean to get off topic here, but wasn't that something- that three-pointer. If you follow the NBA like I do, it's amazing that he's been doing this so long. Reminds me of another ball player from Indiana who just retired... :yes:
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