Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile? | Page 16 | Golden Skate

Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
emma said:
Joe, the dancers/skaters really 'throw the hip out of its socket' or is that just an expression...I'm finding it hard to believe that is actually possible without crashing to the floor/ice...and how do you get it back in???

And in general, I'm still confused about what is considered 'proper' technique..sorry, i'm a bit slow.

About tension...this year is going to be really exciting and really tension filled too....there are just so many amazingly talented - and different from each other - male and female skaters on the seen. Some are not only great but sentimental favorites for their longer journeys and personal difficulties; others are relatively newer but still have history, still others are this olympic cycle newbies...it really is hard to keep the conflicting passions in check. Here's to trying but also just giving a head nod to those momentary unchecked passions...that too is part of the process. I think we can all understand that.

ETA: Joe...I hope you enjoyed the ballet last night!!!!
Emma - I don't think you are a dancer or skater so bear with me. Stand straight now let one foot go directly in back of you and raise it. Now, bring the foot back to original position and let one foot go slightly to the side and lift it towrds the back. and you will see how easier it is and how much higher you get. That's because in the second example your hips are not squared. Please do these exercises carefully and hold onto a bedpost or something.

The proper way in figure skating is irrelevant. It's whatever pleases the judges.

I think, too, we will be having a most exciting Olys in all divisions. I do see odds on favorites but I don't really see 'locks'. even if the odds-on-favorites do win their gold medals, I think others are going to make definite statements. So much statements that I think the threads will be alive with "wuzzrobbed", :laugh:

Joe
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
You are right...I'm not a dancer or a skater, but I do skate (twice a week, two two hour sessions, and I love it). And, I am not flexible, don't stetch like I should (ok, at all), don't turn my hips at...and am too old not to try (so I can actually get in shape and improve), too old (and busy) to get motivated if that makes any sense.

I was asking about 'throw hip out of socket' because I don't think that is possible without loosing the ability to stand...I was just verifying that it's an expression referring to bad hip turn out or the like. I've heard people say, 'i threw my hip out of the socket, so I went to the chiropractor'...but I don't think they literally mean the ball came out of the socket...for if so, again correct me if i'm wrong...they would have been rushed to a hospital.

This season is gonna make me even greyer! Bring it on :rock:
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Rgirl said:
Thanks for trying to explain your position. Better luck next time

It is my position that substance abuse and neurosyphilis are diseases and not as quote “immoral behavior”. You were incorrect when you said that I regard these diseases as immoral behavior. I don't believe in luck this time, next time :)


Don’t worry
Oh I try not to, after all isn’t it the function of the “amygdala” to keep worries, fears and anxieties in check? Just back on topic about Cohen and "fragile" re: her competitive toughness, she seems to be way behind e.g. Tara when it comes to the amygdala function

Is there a medical term …… obsessive needs
If you want to go medical , I believe obsession is defined (medically) as repetitive and persistent thoughts that are experienced as intrusive and cause (the person) marked distress. So by definition the person does not need obsession.. So medically there is no such thing as obsessive needs

I'm already two posts past my sabbatical

Rgirl, this time REALLY gone until Campbell's.

Oh saying goodbye is not easy. [(leaving)(returning)] approaching power infinity

rgirl said:
but sometimes my amygdala (a part of the primitive brain that makes you do primitive things) gets the better of me.

How can you leave w/o telling us more about your amygdala???? :)
 
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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Oh, Joe! Please don't be naughty and make me break my promis again! To "throw the hip out of its socket" is extremely rare and would require a one in a million anatomical structure. If it happened, it would mean an ambulance ride to the nearest hospital and hip replacement surgery. As you said later, you meant rotating the pelvis to get maximum amplitude of the free leg in a spiral.

Joe said:
Last night I attended the Int'l Ballet Competition. YOU LUCKY DUCK! I saw lots of arabesques (spirals) in 180 degree positions all with squared hips. It's not necessary to throw the hip out of its socket to get a higher spiral although, that will get you a higher spiral. I believe Bobek did just that and 90 per cent of all figure skaters throw the hip out of its socket. It looks impressive. I believe to do a high spiral with square hips requires a certain amount of flexibility together with the torso carefully lowered downward. It can be done but the skating part of the trick is maintaining that edge and changing that edge are both difficult.

Since those with extensive skating, math, statistics, anatomy, and most with medical backgrounds try not to make things confusing, I think those of us with dance backgrounds should try to do the same. JMO. So please, no more throwing hips out of the socket. Not even contortionists can do it.

BTW, I agree that in skating, the hip position in an arabesque spiral is whatever the judges like, gives the skater the greatest amplitude, extension, and deepest edge, all without falling over. Dancers do this move either on flat foot or en pointe (on their toe) with the help of a partner for balance. Skaters do it on an 1/8th inch blade, on an angle, skating with maximum speed adross the ice. Comparing the two, you can see why there are so many more elite dancers thanskaters. Who can blame them?

Now shoulders are another story. A good number of people, especially athletes and those who are very active like constructon workers, tend to throw a shoulder out of the socket accidentally. It's never happened to me, but it happened about two or three times a year to a dance friend. If you want to seee someone in agony...oh, BOY! OWWWWWWW!!!! The pain is made even worse when someone who knows how pulls on the shoulder a certain way so it will go back in the socket. But the shoulder is a very shallow joint whereas the hip is a very deep joint. BTW, there's no reason to throw your shoulder or hip out of its joint.

Bad, Joe! Now write 50 times, "You can't throw your hip out of it's socket unless you've got a one ina million hip structure, plus it hurts like hades" ;)


Gezando--Now you should know that obsessive compulsive disorder is a medical problem, and also that the amygdala is also responsible for sexual urges and actions. I promised you the last word, so we'd love to hear the sexual secrets of your amygdala. Everybody already knows mine, tramp that I am.

Rgirl--and don't make me come back!
 
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shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
The two truly beautiful arabesque spirals I've seen came from Angela Nikodinov and Tiffany Stiegler. And amazingly coincidental, though at very different times, both were skating to Giselle choreographed by the same late Elena Tcherkasskaia, who must have been a true ballarina at heart and a passionate lover for Tchaikovsky.
And you might find this surprising, but I think Kimmie Meissner has a very classic, beautiful spiral positition with steady edging in that her hip and legs are perfecting aligned, rather than turned to the side all the time like Kwan's or Cohen's. I generally find real arabesque spiral position much more pleasant than a simple 180 degree split.
But as far as edging and speed go, no one even comes close to Carolina Kostner.

BTW, I miss Angela skating to Giselle so much :frown:
 

dancindiva03

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
shine said:
The two truly beautiful arabesque spirals I've seen came from Angela Nikodinov and Tiffany Stiegler. And amazingly coincidental, though at very different times, both were skating to Giselle choreographed by the same late Elena Tcherkasskaia, who must have been a true ballarina at heart and a passionate lover for Tchaikovsky.
And you might find this surprising, but I think Kimmie Meissner has a very classic, beautiful spiral positition with steady edging in that her hip and legs are perfecting aligned, rather than turned to the side all the time like Kwan's or Cohen's. I generally find real arabesque spiral position much more pleasant than a simple 180 degree split.
But as far as edging and speed go, no one even comes close to Carolina Kostner.

BTW, I miss Angela skating to Giselle so much :frown:

I had forgotten about Tiffany's lovely spirals! Beautiful extention AND amplitude with correct positioning, not opening up her body in order to get the leg up there. Also she had beautiful toe point and nice arm positions and she didn't have that look on her face like, "Look at me! I'm so Gumby! Aren't I amazing?????" I could watch Tiffany skate forever.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Shine, I'm so glad you brought up Angela, Tiffany, and Kimmie Meisner. I saw Kimmie skate live this summer and she is SO much more impressive live than on TV. Gorgeous spiral, I agree. But what impressed me most was her whole body carriage--this girl has natural authority. And the most beautiful classic arms I've seen in a long time. Like Lucinda Ruh's.

Okay, folks. I told you not to make me come back.

NICOLE BOBEK FOE SPIRAL--YOU CALL THOSE HIPS SQUARE?! 1995
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/pictures/misc/bobek.jpg

NICOLE BOBEK FOE SPIRAL--YOU CALL THOSE HIPS SQUARE?! AND I LOVE NICOLE!
ttp://www.toeloopy.com/images/events2002-2003/StarsStripesSkates/nb02sss0228.jpg

NICOLE BOBEK FOE SPIRAL--OH, YEAH; SQURE AS A RUBEK'S CUBE
http://www.webwinds.com/skating/bobekk15.jpg

NICOLE BOBEK FLAT EDGE OPEN HIPS CAN WE STOP THIS SILLY ARGUMENT NOW? WHAT WE REMEMBER IS NOT ALWAYS WHAT HAPPENED
http://www.webwinds.com/skating/bobek16.jpg

BUT--Nicole at her peak was so lovely in her spiral. Once I saw her do a piece in which she spiraled in the spiral and held it for at least 60 seconds. Boy, it was mesmerizing. And nobody looked better in a while costume when she was in great shape.


Joe,
I knew you'd cut those photos down. Movement is best, I agree. But photos are all we have for most people. True it only shows a single moment in time, but it shows how deep the edge is. So go download some programs instead of just bitching about somebody else's work. Watch how the cameraman focuses on the face. Watch how the camera angle is such that you can't see the edge. Sasha wobbled twice in competition on her spiral: Once at Trophee Lalique '03 the first time she tried a change-edge spiral and TAT also had changed the choreography of the entire B/W "Swan Lake." The other during "Malaguana," nobody knows why.

And I disagree with you about how Kwan fans were saying "Spirals, who cares?" when Michelle first started making her mark. Nancy Kerrigan and Nicole bobek, the latter being Michellie's first rival, caused Michelle, according to Peggy Fleming, to want a spiral like Nicole's. So every day, Michelle, who says she was the tightest skater ever, made Frank push her leg up so she's get the flexibility and she'd practice with her boot and an ankle weight to get the strength. People were very interesting in spirals due to Nancy and Nicole and when Michelle's spiral started to improve in amplitude and especially when she did the first change edge spiral, Kwan fans went weild. Why should I have a problem with that? I've liked Michelle's skating ever since she pumped it up in '03l

Bdreampixie,
I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your coach. Sasha does not turn out at the knee. She's got internal tibial torsion (a turned in tibia), which makes that impossible. Sasha has great hip external rotation. She doesn't need to turn out at the knee. As you can see from the photos, Sasha's edges are as good as Michelle's and Irina's. What she lacks is speed. As for your coach's "dog peeing on a hydrant comment," plus his/her other incorrect comments about Sasha's spiral, it sounds as if your coach just doesn't like Sasha.

Hockeyfan,
Don't be blue. I agree with you that Irina pumps her back during her stroking and would have put that in, but copy however many photos I did and I bet you too would be too tired to care about writing about Irin'as pumping back. Besides, I only used the photo because it showed one of her strengthsL Her deep knee bend. If I ever come back, lol, I'll get photos and talk about Irina, Michelle, and Sasha's weaknesses. Right now I'm so tired, they could skate on their (naughty name) for all I care.;)

Rgirl
 
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gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Rgirl said:
Gezando--Now you should know that obsessive compulsive disorder is a medical problem
Medical vs mental depends on which system is used to classify it. According to WHO ICD 10 system, it is classifeid along with other medical illness like diabetes. In USA it is classified under DSMIV TR for psychiatric. BTW, you keep bringing up obsessive?? Are you responding to post #69 in this thread? CzarinaAnya told us that s/he has OCD.
and also that the amygdala is also responsible for sexual urges and actions.
Not sure that the literature is robust about "the amydala is reponsible for sexual urges and actions"

I promised you the last word
:) you kept making promises in this thread w/o being asked to

,
the sexual secrets of .... amygdala.
There is robust literature about cortisol receptors in the amygdala (stress, fear, anxiety related), some literature about LTP (long term potentiation) related to the NMDA receptors (possibly related to learning and memory) Again not sure about strong scientific evidence re: association of sexual secrets and the amygdala. I mean specifically which neurotransmitters and receptors are responsible?

everybody already knows mine, tramp that I am.
No comment

Rgirl--and don't make me come back!
No one can make you do anything. :)
 
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dancindiva03

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Rgirl said:
Bdreampixie,
I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your coach. Sasha does not turn out at the knee. She's got internal tibial torsion (a turned in tibia), which makes that impossible. Sasha has great hip external rotation. She doesn't need to turn out at the knee. As you can see from the photos, Sasha's edges are as good as Michelle's and Irina's. What she lacks is speed. As for your coach's "dog peeing on a hydrant comment," plus his/her other incorrect comments about Sasha's spiral, it sounds as if your coach just doesn't like Sasha.

Ummm first of all okay can you at least get the name right? I'm the one who said that about Sasha. And I'm sorry if you disagree with my coach, but really he doesn't have anything against Sasha except that her spirals are not as great as everyone makes them out to be. He is an excellent coach and judge and he knows what he is talking about. And, many coaches at my rink have made similar comments about Sasha's spiral. And no way are her edges as good as Irina's or Michelle's. There are a lot of things about skating that are subjective, but the angle of one's blade to the ice is not one of them, no is the ease upon which one maintains the edge. Sasha has exhibited several times in major competitions that she has problems with her edges.

As for Sasha not turning out from the knee, YES SHE DOES! I've seen it many many many times! When you look at her spread eagles, her knee is not lined up over her toes, she's rotating out from actually just below the knee. Need me to dig out some pictures?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Rgirl said:
Bad, Joe! Now write 50 times, "You can't throw your hip out of it's socket unless you've got a one ina million hip structure, plus it hurts like hades" ;)Rgirl--and don't make me come back!

Goody Rgirl ! For want of a better phrase about not having squared hips during an arabesque I'll just say square your hips young lady. ;)

Joe
 

bdreampixie

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Rgirl said:
Bdreampixie,
I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your coach. Sasha does not turn out at the knee. She's got internal tibial torsion (a turned in tibia), which makes that impossible. Sasha has great hip external rotation. She doesn't need to turn out at the knee. As you can see from the photos, Sasha's edges are as good as Michelle's and Irina's. What she lacks is speed. As for your coach's "dog peeing on a hydrant comment," plus his/her other incorrect comments about Sasha's spiral, it sounds as if your coach just doesn't like Sasha.
Rgirl
:scratch: I didn't know I had a coach.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Looking at all these pictures, it seems like it is impossible both to square your hips and to maintain a deep edge. Unless you want to break your ankle or hyperextend your knee, it seems like the squarer the hips the more you have to be on the flat of your blade. Is this right?

Soogar explicitly raised the question about the relative importance of attractive body position versus good edging. I think I agree with Soogar (I can't believe I'm saying this, LOL), that for spirals and other moves in the field, looking pretty is really where it's at.

I hate to be a heretic (actually, I don't hate it all that much, LOL), but, to me, there are two basic reasons why anyone wants to skate in the first place.

(a) At the lower levels, because it's fun.

(b) At the elite level, in order to please the audience and thus make money.

Michelle's trademark spiral has been her money move. There is a reason why every figure skating book written for a general audience has a picture of Michelle doing a spiral on it. As every advertiser knows, "Spirals sell."

You want to sell tires? Here you go:

http://www.maxxis.com/intellicms/_e...&height=961&url=/media/gallery/item_15320.jpg

IMHO, Michelle would be a fool to downgrade her spiral (as she has done in her competitive programs in the last year and a half), just to save space to work in a few more CoP points for other elements.

Same with Sasha. If I were Citizen's Watches or Texas Beef I would have it in the contract -- Sasha has to do a least three spirals per program, each lasting at least 5 seconds.

Mathman
 
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gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Mathman said:
Soogar explicitly raised the question about the relative importance of attractive body position versus good edging. I think I agree with Soogar (I can't believe I'm saying this, LOL), that for spirals and other moves in the field, looking pretty is really where it's at.

Then why not call ice skating ice posing. I love Yuka, and Fumie's skating b/c they sail through with speed, and lovely edges. At least watching skating live, the pretty position is not that important to me. BTW, some position may look pretty to some and ugly to others. Cohen's beaver cleaver position is IMHO one of the ugliest in all of skating. Too bad all this emphasis on "pretty style" is exactly what turn some of my friends off, they call ice skating beauty pageant on ice. Figure skating is still an olympic sport, it is about mental toughness, edges, and good (not pretty) positions. No one talked about Yuka's spirals, she has excellent extention (not talking about ampliutde), edges, and speed. Take a look at her Spartacus program, that spiral sailed through a distance with poetic grace.

If pretty style is that important in sports then the Spurs didn't even have to put on their uniform and grind through 7 games. Just ask Tony Parker to pin a picture of Eva Longoria on his uniform.

I hate want to be a heretic (actually, I don't hate it all that much, LOL), but, to me, there are two basic reasons why anyone wants to skate in the first place.

(a) At the lower levels, because it's fun.

(b) At the elite level, in order to please the audience and thus make money.

Michelle's trademark spiral has been her money move

Same with Sasha.
Mathman

Michelle and Sasha are not the only elite skaters. Why do you think Tara Lipinski, and Kristi skate? Kristi is probably one of the best competitive and pro skater in history. What is her pretty trademark move?
 
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emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Well as someone pointed out on another thread (i think it was doggygirl), Kristi had a beautiful death spiral when she skated pairs. ;)
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
gezando said:
Then why not call ice skating ice posing. I love Yuka, and Fumie's skating b/c they sail through with speed, and lovely edges. At least watching skating live, the pretty position is not that important to me. BTW, some position may look pretty to some and ugly to others. Cohen's beaver cleaver position is IMHO one of the ugliest in all of skating. Too bad all this emphasis on "pretty style" is exactly what turn some of my friends off, they call ice skating beauty pageant on ice. Figure skating is still an olympic sport, it is about mental toughness, edges, and good (not pretty) positions. No one talked about Yuka's spirals, she has excellent extention (not talking about ampliutde), edges, and speed. Take a look at her Spartacus program, that spiral sailed through a distance with poetic grace.

If pretty style is that important in sports then the Spurs didn't even have to put on their uniform and grind through 7 games. Just ask Tony Parker to pin a picture of Eva Longoria on his uniform.

An integral part of figure skating is the FORM. I just came back from a lesson on crossovers and I've spent the whole time learning how to extend my free leg out and point the toe on the push off. I have the basic mechanics of the element down but in figure skating it's vital to extend the non-skating leg. Not just for balance but for looks as well.

In a sport like gymnastics, form means everything. A gymnast can have big tricks but if she can't hold her legs together and point her toes, she's going to lose points on execution.

And I have to tell you that maintaining form for aesthetics and mechanics is exhausting. Maintaining a beautiful spiral position for the length of the rink and changing edges is very demanding (as are spin positions, stroking etc).

As for the "beaver cleaver" position; it's a common one in gymnastics, dance, figure skating, and fitness competitions. It shows balance , flexibility , and agility to maintain this position. Figure skating is a sport and the position is not meant to be "sexual". I think it's very third grade like to label positions like that as offensive. It's a real athletic achievement to do a spin in that position or a spiral.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Gezando said:
Kristi is probably one of the best competitive and pro skater in history. What is her pretty trademark move?
Everything. Kristi on ice is a feast for the eyes from beginning to end.

But the real question is whether figure skating is a sport or a beauty contest. (If you don't like the term "beauty contest," call it "performance art.") To me, it is quite obviously half and half.
Gezando said:
Take a look at Yuka's Spartacus program, that spiral sailed through a distance with poetic grace.
That's what I am talking about! OK, it's half a sports competition and half a "poetic grace" contest.

This is explicitly recognized and honored by the judging systems, whether 6.0 or CoP. You get a tech score for how many hard athletic tricks you do, then you get a beauty mark (presentation score or program component score) for how pretty you looked doing it. Of course, "looking pretty" includes speed, edges, posture, ice coverage, intricate transitions, substantive choreography, and all the rest.

If you do not believe that figure skating is 50% beauty contest, let's turn off the music and send the ladies out there in sweatsuits and no makeup. Would your turned-off sports fan friends pay to watch them, if it were just a contest of who could jump the highest, spin the fastest, stroke the most efficiently, or trace figures the most accurately? Or would they rather watch golf and NASCAR?

Mathman
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
soogar said:
As for the "beaver cleaver" position; it's a common one in gymnastics, dance, figure skating, and fitness competitions. the position is not meant to be "sexual". I think it's very third grade like to label positions like that as offensive. It's a real athletic achievement to do a spin in that position or a spiral.
I didn't say it is offensive, I did not refer to beaver cleaver as sexual, I said IMO it is the ugliest move in figure skating. I did not say it is the ugliest move in gymnastics, or dance.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
In response to gezando's quote; "Yuka's Spartacus program is poetic grace"

Mathman said:
But the real question is whether figure skating is a sport or a beauty contest. (If you don't like the term "beauty contest," call it "performance art.") To me, it is quite obviously half and half.That's what I am talking about! OK, it's half a sports competition and half a "poetic grace" contest.

Yuka's Spartacus program is one of her first pro programs, but we are talking about the eligible skating olympic sports

Of course, "looking pretty" includes speed, edges, posture, ice coverage, intricate transitions, substantive choreography, and all the rest.
In that case what makes you think Cohen is the "prettiest skater" (from one of your previous post) when taken speed, edges, etc into consideration?? She has good posture and points her toes. IMHO Yuka has slightly better posture, and when it comes to speed, ice coverage, intricate transitions, and choreography Cohen is average senior level. Taken all these criteria as a whole, IMHO Cohen does not qualify anywhere near as the "prettiest skater"


Would your turned-off sports fan friends pay to watch them, if it were just a contest of who could jump the highest, spin the fastest, stroke the most efficiently, or trace figures the most accurately? Or would they rather watch golf and NASCAR?

Mathman

My turn off sports fan friends won't watch ice skating even if they are given complimentary tickets. They don't like golf either.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
About the BC spin, to me it is not the leg position that is the problem, it is the rounded shoulders and back.

MM
 
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