Telegraphing Your Jumps

OK, I realize that skaters must set up their jumps, and certain amount of preparation time is necessary to assure a successful takeoff and landing.

However, there seems to be a profusion of skaters who really, really telegraph their jumps. Their triple lutzes, for example, are proclaimed for about 10 seconds as they glide backwards to the corner of the rink where they plan to execute the jump. It's a choreographical dead zone, IMHO.

I'm not criticizing any of these wonderful skaters, but take a look at some of them - Dagmar Lurz, the 1980 Olympic bronze medalist, Gregorz Filipoliski, the 1989 World bronze medalist, even Elizabeth Manley, the 1988 Olympic silver medalist -- precious seconds of their programs were eaten up by gliding backwards in preparation for the triple lutz.

I'm not sure whether I would characterize Irina Slutsakaya's triple loop preparation as "telegraphing", but it comes very close to being that, IMHO.

I think Surya used to be one of the worst with regards to telegraphing her lutz - I can't recall if she fixed that or not. I think it was the 92 Oly's - she took the entire diagonal length of the rink to set up her triple jump.

While they are wonderful jumpers, Irina and Oksana B both have a habit of holding their arms in a particular manner which screams "I'm getting ready to jump" Petrenko also did this at times - so, I guess it's not surprising that Oksana does too since they were both trained by his mother-in-law. Someone mentioned years ago that this was a common trait - especially with Ukrainian skaters.

It's kind of hard to say....I don't like telegraphed jumps, however when the jump is spectacular, I can cope. I hate to see Vika V "set up" for her lutz, it is such a long glide, however her amplitude is so awsome, I somehow accept it as her way of compensation...she needs that extra time to get that height and spring and clean air rotation, most especially if the lutz is done in combo.

I think Michelle's lutz is so much prettier since Frank C taught her to "cross foot" into the edge so that she could hold it more securely instead of flipping over to an inside edge. I do think this holds her speed back and is one of the reasons she has trouble doing a 3X3 combo out of a lutz.

Julia Sebastian is another one that drives me wild. Such beautiful jumps, but footwork into at least two, PLEASE. That "sharp shoulder turn" that immediately means she's turning onto a jumping edge and it will be five more full seconds until she commits to the jump.

Hmmmmm, must be hard being a proficient figure skater. I wouldn't know

Telegraphing gets on my nerves a little. When they do that, it makes me feel like they are more likely to look behind themeself, get psyched out before they hit the air, and fall on their tushy's.

It also takes up more time than not telegraphing at all.

sk8m8 said:

Julia Sebastian is another one that drives me wild. Such beautiful jumps, but footwork into at least two, PLEASE. That "sharp shoulder turn" that immediately means she's turning onto a jumping edge and it will be five more full seconds until she commits to the jump.

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mmmm yeah, she does telegraph her jumps... but I just love when she gets in the air, she's almost flying... so don't like the telegraphing, but I LOVE the spring in her jumps

No one in the modern era beats Elena Liashenko for telegraphs, with the Lutz telegraph spanning the length of the ice and that horrible knee up position and her back bowed to maintain balance, and the Flip, where she bends over from the waist at the end and does a little squat before take-off.

In all fairness, the lutz is not an easy jump to be preceded by some sort of footwork or element immediately. It generally takes a bit of back outside preparation before striking that toepick.

A combo with the lutz being the second jump would not work unless the skater is ambidextrous in skating - not likely in figure skating.

A back outside spread eagle into a lutz would work but more than likely require a certain amount of delay before striking the toepick.

A back 'shoot the duck' also winds up with a somewhat lengthy preparation and includes a complete rise from the down position to the normal position before striking the toepick.

The easiest, and it is not easy, is the footwork where the last step is a forward crossover into an inside three turn and an immediate lutz. This is tough but can be done and should get good GOE scores.

Joe

I actually have noticed that quite a few skaters telegraph their jumps. To me, it ruins the flow of the program and distracts me, making it easier for me to nitpick their performance. I think the reason I felt Irina's performance lacked choreography was that the jumps seemed telegraphed.

Kurt Browning is one of the few skaters who never telegraphs his jumps. Kurt can jump out of nowhere. Jeff Buttle is also very good at difficult jump entries and at not telegraphing.

It takes great skill as a skater and choreographer as well to make programs interesting and to keep jumps from becoming predictable. The Lutz - especially the triple - does take a lot of preparation. However, a skater can keep things interesting by using a variety of entrances.

I agree that Kurt Browning is one of the best skaters when it comes to approaching jumps from footwork or unusual edges. Gary Beacom was not a very proficient jumper, but most of his jumps were had extremely difficult entries that very few, if any skaters attempt (example his accelerating spiral into a double axel).

Boitano could telegraph jumps, but as they were so spectacular, it never bothered me. His long spread eagle into the Tano Lutz, is probably one of the few moves that I would like be able to do myself. Stojko was also a notable telegrapher of jumps (especially the quad toe and triple Lutz). Emanuel was once very adept at doing jumps in unexpected places.

Perhaps it's just me but if find there to be more of this, telegraphing of jumps that is, in ladies skating? Any thoughts as to why this might be the case? Also, what bothers me more than just about anything with jumps (except for poor air position) is the looking over the shoulders business that almost all skaters are in the practice of doing. If your choreography is good and you are executing it precisely, then you will not be too close to the boards. Dancers hit the exact same spot night after night, while keeping there eyes on something other than the floor or the edge of the stage, so why not have skaters not looking at the boards?

I have seen a skater experiment with a blindfold and found that after awhile (okay, several very scary weeks) they were able to do their program while wearing one just as well (I thought better because they didn’t look over their shoulder!) as when they were able to see.

Heldentenor said:

Perhaps it's just me but if find there to be more of this, telegraphing of jumps that is, in ladies skating? Any thoughts as to why this might be the case? Also, what bothers me more than just about anything with jumps (except for poor air position) is the looking over the shoulders business that almost all skaters are in the practice of doing. If your choreography is good and you are executing it precisely, then you will not be too close to the boards. Dancers hit the exact same spot night after night, while keeping there eyes on something other than the floor or the edge of the stage, so why not have skaters not looking at the boards?

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Perhaps they're worried they'll do a Midori Ito on their lutz combinations?!

I've also read books and had coaches teach the looking over the right shoulder on the lutz to really get the counter check preparation on the lutz.

Ant

There is also the skater who telegraphs a lutz only to rock it over into a flip. That is the worst scenario and after all that buildup for a perfect lutz.

No matter, in this day and age, it's not a flip but a flutz - a non official term but accepted by the community. You figure, if you overrotate a jump you are severely penalized for the overrotation and the underrotation when it is declared a jump with less rotation. If you do a flip instead of a lutz, you get a -1 deduction for turning the lutz into a flip. And that's only if the Tech Asst sees it.

Joe

Heldentenor said:

Perhaps it's just me but if find there to be more of this, telegraphing of jumps that is, in ladies skating? Any thoughts as to why this might be the case?

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Not sure what you're saying. That, in 2005, ladies telegraph their jumps more than men do? If that's what you mean, the answer is probably because triple jumps are harder for them, they need more concentration to pull them off.

On the other hand, pretty much everyone (mostly men) who does quads or triple axels telegraphs them more than is typical for the other triples.

Also, what bothers me more than just about anything with jumps (except for poor air position) is the looking over the shoulders business that almost all skaters are in the practice of doing. If your choreography is good and you are executing it precisely, then you will not be too close to the boards. Dancers hit the exact same spot night after night, while keeping there eyes on something other than the floor or the edge of the stage, so why not have skaters not looking at the boards?

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Keep in mind that most skaters practice most of the time on ice with other skaters, each doing their own thing, so they have to get in the habit of watching out for traffic if they want to avoid collisions. Elite skaters may, if they're lucky, have more opportunities than most to practice on empty or near-empty ice, but they learned to watch where they're going before they were elite, and even if there are only two skaters on the ice each doing their own thing, during the course of an hour there are bound to be a few close calls.

With most jump approaches it's not necessary to turn your head very far to see where you're going, but for a sustained back outside edge approach to the lutz, you're pretty much traveling directly backward and need to turn the head pretty far to see if anyone's there.

And because the traffic from other skaters is never going to be the same every time you practice, there are slight adjustments made every time that will affect how close you get to the boards or the exact angle of the approach. Also, rinks can vary in length or width by several feet and the corners may be more rounded or more squared off, which could lead to suprises when a skater relies on muscle memory from her home practice rink.

At 20 or 25 miles per hour, the consequences of miscalculation would be more serious than at the walking or even running pace that dancers on stage can achieve.

Skating on a freestyle session or competition warmup in many ways has more in common with driving in light but erratic traffic than with dancing on stage where everyone has learned and rehearsed the same piece.

Joesitz said:

If you do a flip instead of a lutz, you get a -1 deduction for turning the lutz into a flip. And that's only if the Tech Asst sees it.

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The callers don't deduct for incorrect edges. It's the judges' responsibility to deduct from GOE for flutzes and lips, with different deductions, depending on the severity.

gkelly said:

Keep in mind that most skaters practice most of the time on ice with other skaters, each doing their own thing, so they have to get in the habit of watching out for traffic if they want to avoid collisions. .....

And because the traffic from other skaters is never going to be the same every time you practice, there are slight adjustments made every time that will affect how close you get to the boards or the exact angle of the approach. Also, rinks can vary in length or width by several feet and the corners may be more rounded or more squared off, which could lead to suprises when a skater relies on muscle memory from her home practice rink.

At 20 or 25 miles per hour, the consequences of miscalculation would be more serious than at the walking or even running pace that dancers on stage can achieve.

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Your post brings some important issues into consideration, namely that while looking over the shoulder a necessity when skating on unfamiliar ice or with other skaters on the rink, and because it has become a habit, skaters will do it even when not necessary.

There are of course skaters who don't always preface their Lutz jumps with looking over their shoulders and I commend them for it, as it- in my opinion- allows them to stay more in character (if they are portraying one, that is).

Now it's been a while since I have read about the biomechanics and physics of jumping on ice, but I think 25mph might be a bit much for a triple Lutz. I seem to recall most triple jumps being approached from under 20 mph with anything much over that being rare, but I could well be wrong, and if I am I apologize.

Heldentenor (great name!), thanks for joining us and welcome to the forum.

Mathman

Heldentenor said:

Now it's been a while since I have read about the biomechanics and physics of jumping on ice, but I think 25mph might be a bit much for a triple Lutz. I seem to recall most triple jumps being approached from under 20 mph with anything much over that being rare, but I could well be wrong, and if I am I apologize.

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I remember hearing about 10 years ago that Tonia Kwiatkowski said she had been clocked at 24 mph going into her lutz. Maybe that was her fastest ever. She was a pretty fast skater, but I bet e.g., Urmanov, Slutskaya, Kostner, have gone into lutzes faster than that on occasion. Most skaters, of course, do not.

gkelly said:

I remember hearing about 10 years ago that Tonia Kwiatkowski said she had been clocked at 24 mph going into her lutz. Maybe that was her fastest ever. She was a pretty fast skater, but I bet e.g., Urmanov, Slutskaya, Kostner, have gone into lutzes faster than that on occasion. Most skaters, of course, do not.

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I would agree with your last statement, and of course there will always be speedy skaters who go into their jumps carrying more speed than their peers. Generally, I think say that high speed going into jumps is probably more interesting to the observer than a more, “stately”, shall we say, entrance pace, though, if it's particularly slow, one can marvel at how the skater was able to complete the jump and flow out of it, when it looked like they just didn't have the horizontal velocity for it.

It is also interesting that some skaters approach certain jumps with quite a bit of speed relative the other jumps in their repertoire. For example skater might go into their Flips and Lutzes (sp) going like a rocket, while they may seem to be standing still for a Salchow or Axel, or perhaps they have a quick Flip and a slow Lutz.

Heldentenor said:

It is also interesting that some skaters approach certain jumps with quite a bit of speed relative the other jumps in their repertoire. For example skater might go into their Flips and Lutzes (sp) going like a rocket, while they may seem to be standing still for a Salchow or Axel, or perhaps they have a quick Flip and a slow Lutz.

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You have to remember that a toepick takeoff is like a pole vault particularly in the lutz. You've seen polevaulters run like mad before puting the pole in the socket for the jump. Similarly the toepick jumps - the faster you go into it the higher and easier the jump is. However, with edge jumps a skater does have to be more careful because he doesn't have the assist of the toepick.

Entry into toepick jumps need speed; edge jumps need careful approach. Kinda like Tristan v. Caravadozzi. and skaters have to deal with music and tempo which also dictates speed. Not so in gymnasts and divers.

Joe

Joesitz said:

You have to remember that a toepick takeoff is like a pole vault particularly in the lutz. You've seen polevaulters run like mad before puting the pole in the socket for the jump. Similarly the toepick jumps - the faster you go into it the higher and easier the jump is. However, with edge jumps a skater does have to be more careful because he doesn't have the assist of the toepick.

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I appreciate your comments re: toe-jumps vs. edge jumps, but seem to recall that physics requires that the arms do a lot of the work in the higher order jumps (triples and quads) and that their contribution to the angular momentum in the Lutz is just as important as that toe-vault. But this wasn’t a discussion about biomechanics and because I don’t feel like rummaging around for those papers and a calculator so I’ll leave it at that. As for gymnasts and not having to worry about music and tempo, what of rhythmic gymnastics?

My comment wasn’t necessarily that skaters are slower in their entries to edge jumps, though this is often the case. Taking the example of Brian Boitano, who telegraphed many of his jumps but entered(s) them all with great speed. Some skaters seem to be faster into their axels than their Lutzes like Petrenko. I find it interesting that many of these examples are using older skaters. Perhaps today’s breed with their greater emphasis on jumps have become a little more even in the speeds of their approaches?