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Thread: Rule Changes for Singles and Pairs

  1. #1
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Rule Changes for Singles and Pairs

    I just noticed this on the ISU site today.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/co...s-item,00.html

    Now, off to try and read it!!

    DG

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Thanks Doggygirl - I'll get around to it later also. I did read about the Bielman spin which states, I believe, that it will be judged only after the skater does a layback spin.

    I also noted that there is still no firm rule that the layback must be done in the ballet attitude position. As long as the skater lays back or leans to the side, that will qualify for the rule.

    Joe

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    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Hey Joe...

    I will definately be interested in your take on the impact after you've had a chance to read through everything. There are several mentions about the Biellmann throughout the document - at another stage it talks about only being considered a Biellmann if the foot is over the head (I thought that was always what it took...) and also something about the count for number of revolutions starting once the foot is over the head.

    The real question in my mind is how do these changes relate to what we've seen in the past year? Would all of Irina's positions have counted? Other rule changes and how they will impact other skaters?

    DG

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    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    I'm sure rule changes regarding the Biellman are a direct result of Irina puting so many of them in her programs and getting very high base values for it.

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    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Another change that would have affected Irina...

    The change regarding 3-peat triples. Irina did 3 3L's at World's (unplanned, I'm sure). She still got credit for one jump of the combo where she did the 3-peat 3L. Under the new rules, it looks like nothing counts in a combo or sequence that includes a 3-peat 3.

    If the new rule about when the Biellmann "starts" (foot fully over the head) applies to spirals, then I also think Irina's spiral would have not gotten level 3 as in her foot was not fully over her head for 3 seconds in the last part of the spiral.

    I'm curious if the singles rule changes will affect anyone else. Or will these be forever known as the "Irina Rules!"

    DG

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    Custom Title brad640's Avatar
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    Thanks Doggygirl!
    Here are the changes that stood out to me:

    More emphasis on levels of elements (more power to technical controller). There are now 4 levels for pairs and singles elements; new requirements to achieve level 4 spins, spirals and step sequences.

    Less emphasis on GOE (less power to judges). GOE values changed from +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, -3 to +1.5, +1, +0.5, 0, -0.3, -0.6, -1.

    Stricter rule for fall deductions: -1.00 for loss of control "resulting in both blades leaving the ice and/or any part of the body core or both hands or one hand and one knee touches the ice for stabilization." So a skater who puts both hands down will now receive the same penalty as a skater who falls flat.

    New referee duty to ensure judges to not bring with them to the judges' stand any reports of previous scores, that they do not communicate or look at other judges scores.

    Multiple axel jumps may not constitute a jump sequence

    -2 GOE deduction for a second change of foot in a change of foot spin

    Going from a layback to a Biellman is not considered a change of position (cannot contribute to higher level) unless there are first 8 revolutions in layback positions. This is definitely a reaction to Irina, who received level 3 on her laybacks because they included a Biellman at the end, however Irina did 10 revolutions before the Biellman, so this rule seems to target Irina wanna-be's.

    Spins in both directions are considered a difficult variation and count as one spin if they immediately follow each other and there are 3 or more revolutions in each direction

    Footwork: New requirements that steps and turns be balanced in footwork sequences; Credit given for slowing and accelerating, not just for stopping

    *After reading this I have to salute Denise Biellman for creating a move that has obviously given the ISU so much grief.

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    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Thanks as always Brad for your expert commentary. You should become a writer for the ISU - it would sure be easier to figure out the rules the way you write them!

    For some reason, I was thinking Irina went into the Biellmann spin positions out of a camel rather than a layback. I better go look at my tapes again.

    I totally did not catch the changes to score values for +/- GOE. I would like to be optimistic that this is a step towards more specialization in the judging panels (TES v. PCS) that we've discussed through the season around here. BUT... it does seem to put a whole bunch of power into one person's hands. And I'm also not sure whether the addition of level 4 elements will be a benefit, or just confuse the skaters, coaches, and technical callers. I hope the callers get LOTS of training during the off season.

    Having been a FS fan for years, but with no technical knowledge, I like COP. It's forcing me to learn a lot more details about this sport that I love to watch!

    DG
    Last edited by Doggygirl; 05-25-2005 at 03:26 PM.

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    The new rule for the layback spin is that eight revolutions must be completed in the back and/or sideways layout position before going into the Biellmann position for the Biellmann position to count towards raising the level of the spin.

    Regarding holding a spiral position for three seconds, I don't remember that being a problem for Slutskaya at all. The issue (for me, clearly not for the judges) was that she didn't establish a solid edge until after her leg had hit the final overhead position, but that isn't covered by the new rule. If anything, this could be called the "Kwan Rule," because in qualis, she didn't hold the side stretch position for three seconds. Or the "Cohen Rule," because in one of the programs she shorted the side split position when she ran out of blade speed. The moral seems to be, don't try a position unless you can hold it for 3 seconds.

    There's a new rule that says every position in a combo spin has to be held for a minimum of two revolutions. This applies to some of Slutskaya's spins where on the second side the full Biellmann position is shorted revolutions, but it would apply to most of the Biellmann attempts I saw in Moscow, where at least one revolution is spent going in and out of position, particularly in the "open" Biellmanns. The only current skater I've never seen do this is Daria Timoshenko.

    Pairs are now going to get a 1.1 factor for jumps and throws performed in the second half of the program. There also seems to be a Zayak rule for pairs, if I'm reading the following correctly on page 7:
    All jumps executed with more than 2 revolutions (Double Axel and all triple and quadruple jumps) must be of different nature (different name). However the jump combination or sequence can contain two same such jumps.
    I read that as, it's okay to do 3T SEQ 3T or 3T+2T, but not a 3T for the solo jump. If this is a correct reading, it means some pairs will have to up the ante to a second triple or go back to a 2A in sequence.

    There's also a L4 twist lift, and a number of requirements for determining lift level: examples: if a change of hand-hold for the man isn't held for at least one revolution or a woman's change of body position doesn't change the balance of the lift, it doesn't count towards difficulty. Also, if a man does a series of one-handed positions for less than one rotation each, only one counts towards increasing difficulty.

    They've defined that for death spirals, the man has to be pivoting on the pick and in a bent-knee position, and that the position must be entirely supported by the man's outstretched arm and the woman's blade edge, with no other support. Additional revolutions that meet the criteria will count towards higher levels of difficulty.

    For jump sequences, a ban on stroking as well as cross-overs between jumps has been added.

    For pairs spirals, the new rules are pushing toward balance between the partners. Each partner must do at least two spiral positions (held three seconds each) to get higher than Level 1. Moves in the field have been removed from positions that count towards spirals.

    For step sequences for singles and pairs, the difficulty is supposed to be balanced throughout the sequence. (Presumably this means not front-loaded.) For pairs, switching positions and adding holds can increase difficulty.

    The new fall definition for dance also appolies to singles and pairs: both blades leave the ice, both hands are down, one hand and one knee are down or part of the body core is on the ice. (So sitting with both blades on the ice will count as a fall next year.)

    The referee is now like an exam proctor, and is responsible for checking the judges to be sure they don't have crib notes or look at each others marks. (Or, presumably, tap dance.)

    Many of these rules seem to emphasize holding positions instead of throwing in the kitchen sink for quick flashes. That should help the callers see more clearly and decrease the chances of inconsistencies for levelling for the same element across competitions.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad640
    Thanks Doggygirl!
    Less emphasis on GOE (less power to judges). GOE values changed from +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, -3 to +1.5, +1, +0.5, 0, -0.3, -0.6, -1.
    None of the jumps are listed, though. Triple and quad jumps, and quad throws, and Group 5 L3 lasso lifts were among of the few elements that scored +3, +2, +1 last year. Most of the rest were on a +1.5, +1, and +.5 scale. It looks like they tweaked/lowered some of the L1 base values for spins, and by adding L4, downgraded L3 to a base midway between L2 and the old L3, and used the old L3 base for L4.

    Disappointing.

  10. #10
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    New Rules

    I am really confused about the Bielman position. Does this mean Irina will get a level 4 for her Bielman spins?? What about the sprial? Is her sprial going to be a level 4?? How about the combination 3L/ illusion/2R? I don't understand why the ISU is initiating level 4's when skaters and technical specalist are having a hard time with level 3's . I sure hope this gets straight before the Olympics.

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    english heretic Kateri's Avatar
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    I'm confused as to why the GOEs have been de-emphasised, since I thought that the judges were actually being fairly accurate with these. It's the TCS mark they seemed to be screwing around on. Has the TCS mark not been looked at at all?


    k.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I believe there are more technical specialists whose mother tongue is Russian regardless of the muslim countries they represent. I believe the Tech Specialists' names are not secret. Am I correct?

    I'm not against taking some of the power from the judges with regard to the GOEs. That's one area where favoritism runs rampant.

    Who's in charge of keeping tabs on the 3 second spiral hold? and will he be alert to skaters whom he favors?

    Achieving Level 4 elements (I say tricks) will keep the orthopedics in business.

    Fall deductions. How does that work? How much credit does one get for missing a completed jump? The minus 1 to me is like a gift for falling on a quad. Who judges this? the Tech Spec or the Judges? If Amber Corwin is not making her triple, her coach should tell her to fall rather than underrotate, and fall so that it looks like the air turns were complete - not difficult. Underrotated jumps continue to be the one trick getting the biggest penalty. Sloppy spins and sloppy jump landings as well as falls, get a wrist slap.

    Hey Brad - Could you clarify your take on bringing scores to the judges stand. I don't think I really understand it.

    A single axel step double axel step triple axel will not constitute a jump sequence. Sad. In ballet it would bring the house down.

    Deduction in GOE for a second change foot spin if one has already been done. Would Sasha's two last combo spins in her 2005 LP be affected by this rule if she were to do them again this season?

    Oh, those Bielmans - all of them - pointrackers! I don't want to get riled up over this ugly position, and yes,
    when we see them we should all scream out Denise, Denise, Denise!

    I'm surprised spins in both directions was not mentioned in the rules previously.

    Ditto with footwork.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 05-25-2005 at 04:37 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    If Amber Corwin is not making her triple, her coach should tell her to fall rather than underrotate, and fall so that it looks like the air turns were complete - not difficult.
    The rotation is not based on air turns. Rotation is based on the landing position of the feet. If a skater doesn't rotate completely and falls, s/he'll get -3GOE on the double, less 1 point for the fall.

    To maximize points, the coach should tell the skater to land a clean double.

    Re: Cohen's second change of foot, that restriction is only in the SP, and was in the rules last year. The difference is that the penalty has been defined as -2 GOE.
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 05-25-2005 at 04:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicky458
    I am really confused about the Bielman position. Does this mean Irina will get a level 4 for her Bielman spins?? What about the sprial? Is her sprial going to be a level 4??
    You have to look at each spin individually to see if Slutskaya will qualify for L4. The Biellmann after 8 revolutions in a layback spin only qualifies as a criterion for higher levels in the SP. If she does not have three of the other three criteria for the same spin in the LP, the spin could be a L4 in the SP and and L3 in the LP.

    As far as the spiral goes, to attain L4, a skater needs to meet five of six criteria. One of the criteria is a forwards or sideways full split with optional one arm hold, and another is an unsupported sideways or forward position. (Are these the "Cohen Criteria"?) I don't remember what Slutskaya's third spiral position was this year, so I don't know whether this year's spiral sequence would qualify as L4 next year. But it's not as if she doesn't have time to upgrade if she needs to.

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    It's all about Plushenko.
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    A single axel step double axel step triple axel will not constitute a jump sequence. Sad. In ballet it would bring the house down.
    Will it? There's no Zayak rule on single or double axels.

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