The Three Top Ladies of the Worlds

Carolina

I'm definitely a Carolina supporter. I think she has the athletic drive and determination that [could] take her to the top of the podium at the olympics. The Worlds coverage in Canada said that she was off for something like 6 months due to injury not very long ago at all. I saw her at Skate Canada in Halifax and I noticed such growth when I watched worlds. With a little polishing over the summer and two good programs, she should be a force to be reckoned with.

Irina is the best skater in the world like it or not. She gives her all in comps unlike certain skater who only does 3-3's in practices

Okay one at a time

MZHENG

Let’s be specific it is your opinion that MK spiral is the best in the world, this opinion is not held by me and it certainly is not held by the Judges or technical specialist. As for changes in the spiral over the last 3-4 MKFAN51 states “And if we don't want Michelle to repeat her same spiral again” and I replied that they had. The reason I like change is that it indicates that a skater is continuing to evolve in their skating and that their technical skills are improving and that they are not stagnating. Maybe you like to see the same things over and over but I don’t.

Yes Attyfan asked me. Do you still hate to see MK win even if she is the best skater of the night?

My reply was that it didn’t and it still is if MK came out with the best chorography, good to great spins, an improved spiral sequence and a full complement of jumps. I would say great you finally did it. But through observation over the last 3-4 years I don’t think that is going to happen. I want the best skater to win not the skater with reputation points. I wonder why it’s okay for people to say that about IS and SC but I can’t say it about MK.

MZHENG I would really appreciate it if you wouldn’t infer that I hate MK because I don’t, I am not a fan but I don’t hate any skater, without knowing her personally how can I.

Kwanford Wife

The only reason I listed IS and SC title was to show, in addition to my pervious post why I felt why they were who we should use as the current standard. Most people seem to be overly impressed by titles

You find IS sloppy I find MK boring.

I have stated before that I am only looking at the current situation and the trend that have lead up to it.

If we were looking at skaters from the last 10 years I would say that MK makes the top 3 easily but I’m not I am look at now. And according to my criteria, which I don’t see anyone disagreeing with MK, doesn’t currently make the top 3.

Janet

curious said:

Irina is the best skater in the world like it or not. She gives her all in comps unlike certain skater who only does 3-3's in practices

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Yeah! Make it two of them who only do 3-3's in practices. Shame on US top ladies!

janetb said:

What I would hate.

Michele Kwan to win, because she is not keeping up techinacally and it would be a life time achevment award

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You certainly do have a rather strong anti-Kwan bias. It's rather silly to be posting those statements when nobody even has the faintest inkling yet of Michelle's planned technical contents for her programs. It's rather disconcerting that you have already made up your mind that it would be a gift for " a lifetime of achievement" if Michelle was to win the OGM...when the Games haven't even started yet! When you already have such a biased slant, it just makes your arguments against her that much more without substance.

janetb said:

Okay one at a time

MZHENG

Let’s be specific it is your opinion that MK spiral is the best in the world, this opinion is not held by me and it certainly is not held by the Judges or technical specialist. As for changes in the spiral over the last 3-4 MKFAN51 states “And if we don't want Michelle to repeat her same spiral again” and I replied that they had. The reason I like change is that it indicates that a skater is continuing to evolve in their skating and that their technical skills are improving and that they are not stagnating. Maybe you like to see the same things over and over but I don’t.

Yes Attyfan asked me. Do you still hate to see MK win even if she is the best skater of the night?

My reply was that it didn’t and it still is if MK came out with the best chorography, good to great spins, an improved spiral sequence and a full complement of jumps. I would say great you finally did it. But through observation over the last 3-4 years I don’t think that is going to happen. I want the best skater to win not the skater with reputation points. I wonder why it’s okay for people to say that about IS and SC but I can’t say it about MK.

MZHENG I would really appreciate it if you wouldn’t infer that I hate MK because I don’t, I am not a fan but I don’t hate any skater, without knowing her personally how can I.

Kwanford Wife

The only reason I listed IS and SC title was to show, in addition to my pervious post why I felt why they were who we should use as the current standard. Most people seem to be overly impressed by titles

You find IS sloppy I find MK boring.

I have stated before that I am only looking at the current situation and the trend that have lead up to it.

If we were looking at skaters from the last 10 years I would say that MK makes the top 3 easily but I’m not I am look at now. And according to my criteria, which I don’t see anyone disagreeing with MK, doesn’t currently make the top 3.

Janet

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Michell can't keep up with her promises lol! Michell knows she will have to earn a medal in Turino.

TNT2012 said:

You certainly do have a rather strong anti-Kwan bias. It's rather silly to be posting those statements when nobody even has the faintest inkling yet of Michelle's planned technical contents for her programs. It's rather disconcerting that you have already made up your mind that it would be a gift for " a lifetime of achievement" if Michelle was to win the OGM...when the Games haven't even started yet! When you already have such a biased slant, it just makes your arguments against her that much more without substance.

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Exactly. You said it much better than I could've.

TNT2012 said:

You certainly do have a rather strong anti-Kwan bias. It's rather silly to be posting those statements when nobody even has the faintest inkling yet of Michelle's planned technical contents for her programs. It's rather disconcerting that you have already made up your mind that it would be a gift for " a lifetime of achievement" if Michelle was to win the OGM...when the Games haven't even started yet! When you already have such a biased slant, it just makes your arguments against her that much more without substance.

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So my arguments are without substance by cause my bias is not positive towards MK. Any prociquetion lawyer would tell you that this statement to a bunch of bunk. Why are for example MZHENG and Kwanford Wife opinions more valid because they luv her skating? I would hate for any skater to win the gold on reputation point and get a lifetime achievement award. Can anyone here come up with another skater that has the rep to achieve this?

Basically your post indicates to me that you can't come up with a response to my arguements other than to say your wrong wrong wrong. What comes next personal bashing.

As for not knowing what going on in next years programs? I don’t. But I have made reasonable (to my mind at least) from what has gone on in the last two years and have formed an opinion. This is a figure skating board after all and it is summer we have nothing else to talk about, so why shouldn’t I post about my projections for the OLY. Everyone else is.

I have noticed that no one has argued about my criteria for the third best skater or come up with their own. If you feel MK is the third best skater come up with a reason for over looking the lack of the loop and stop focusing on my opinions. You aren’t going to make me it an MK fan only MK has that ability and so far she has failed

Have a nice weekend everybody, I would be able to talk again till Monday.

Janet ... your bias is quite obvious, but that's okay. You certainly have that right.
I will not, however, let you get away with declaring Michelle hasn't upped the ante and Sasha has. That is just not true.

nymkfan51 said:

Janet ... your bias is quite obvious, but that's okay. You certainly have that right.
I will not, however, let you get away with declaring Michelle hasn't upped the ante and Sasha has. That is just not true.

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ITA! If Michelle hasn't upped the ante by not doing 3/3s, then neither has Sasha. If Sasha has upped the ante, even without doing 3/3s, by her spins and spirals, then so has Michelle (by adding things like 3/2/2.) People can (and will) argue who is the best of the American skaters, but either both have upped the ante or neither have done so.

Certainly there are a few skaters could be considered the 3 spot, but only Michelle has the most qualification. Skating a program is similar to writing an article. Many people can write same topic articles faily good, using similar vocab, but only the most talented writer can get readers convinced. Michelle's skating is just like a talented writer's product, she can use all her moves, spins, and jumps to tell the judges and audience that "I am simply the best!".

janetb said:

Basically your post indicates to me that you can't come up with a response to my arguements other than to say your wrong wrong wrong. What comes next personal bashing.

Have a nice weekend everybody, I would be able to talk again till Monday.

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I do not bash nor do I condone bashing any poster in this forum. Everybody has a right to post their opinions, ideas, and thoughts (well within reason I suppose) in here. The reason I didn't response directly to your arguments was not because I'm absolutely clueless, but because I know I would only be wasting my breath. You are obviously very steadfast in your bias against Michelle. Therefore, there would be no point in me trying to push a point when it's pretty apparent you have no intention of letting anyone cut away at that bias. Just look at the many posters who had posted in contrary to your opinion about Michelle's unwillingness to up the ante technically. They made absolutely no difference in getting you to even partially acknowledge that idea. You are adamant in holding on to your anti-Kwan bias no matter what, so why would I even bother to attempt to change it..even just a little bit. You think you are right in your assertion, and I think you are wrong to have it. When it comes to opinions, whatever you think is right or wrong just depends on which side of the fence you're sitting on...that's all.

Have a nice weekend, too!

On Upping the Ante...

Here are the areas where Sasha upped the ante from last year to this year based strictly on the TES score components - the best objective segment of the judging we have to go by.

I looked at 3 comps from the 2003/4 season - SA, TL (now TEB) and GPF, and Worlds 2005. Sasha messed up several jumps at the GPF in 2003, so I'm relying more on her better skates from SA and TL.

Upping the ante on jumps: Sasha's program in 2003/2004 included 2 3/2 combos, and the full array of other triples.

At World's 2005, this was upgraded to include a 3/2/2 and a 3/3 sequence and also included the full array of triples.

Upping the ante on non-jump elements: Sasha essentially had all level 2 non-jump elements at the 3 comps mentioned for 2003/4, with the exception of TL where 1 of the 6 non-jump elements was called a level 1.

At Worlds 2005, Sashas non-jump elements were called level 2 for 4 of them, and level 3 for 2 of them.

So...Sasha upped the ante in both jump and non-jump content year over year according to the rules.

Carolina struggled greatly with her jumps in 2003/4 based on the SA and COR score sheets. So she had a massive score improvement this year, which was primarily related to getting the jumps in order for Worlds. She had an even split between level 1 and level 2 elements at COR last year, and that was the same at Worlds this year. Therein lies an opportunity.

A comparison of this sort is not possible for Irina for all the obvious reasons. And since MK has been inserted into this thread about the podium finishers from Worlds, I'll add that it's not possible for her either for obvious reasons.

The base values at Worlds this year were pretty close for all 4 of these ladies. Sasha actually came out with the highest base value (58.4) but Irina prevailed in the execution. But Carolina wasn't all that far behind and I hope she can keep the jumps for next season, and make whatever changes are necessary to upgrade the non-jump elements to level 2 (or higher - 4 levels for next year!) across the board.

DG

Doggygirl -- thank you for the specifications for how Sasha has upped the ante. It looks, therefore, like both have upped the ante on both the jump and non-jump elements. (Michelle had a level 3 spiral in her SP, and, several level 2 non-jump elements). It's just goes to show that there is more to "upping the ante" than just 3/3s.

I think the reason Michelle has crept into this thread is because of Joe's opinion with which he introduced the topic: "It looks to me, like the Olys will have a repeat of the previous Worlds at this point in time."

Surely it is not off topic to disagree with this opinion.

To me, it is absurd to rate Sasha's chances ahead of Michelle's. As for Irina versus Michelle for gold, well, that's why they hold the contest.

Mathman.

Mathman said:

To me, it is absurd to rate Sasha's chances ahead of Michelle's. As for Irina versus Michelle for gold, well, that's why they hold the contest.

Mathman.

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MM - Why do you think "it is absurd to rate Sasha's chances ahead of Michelle's"....?????

I don't think it's absurd at all to note that at 2005 Worlds, Sasha 1) got the Silver based on the current judging criteria and 2) got the Silver while MK got 4th. That's just facts, like them or not. So based on these facts, why is it "absurd" to rate Sasha's chances ahead of Michelle's, considering the facts at this stage?

My biggest wish for Olys is that the person who skates the best "on the day" is the winner. And I personally think that field is wide open for the ladies, mens and pairs. I don't really follow dance, so that's my only reason for not making a comment there.

DG

Carolina did not struggle with her jumps at the Worlds. She did a 3x3x3 among many other triples and combos. And her speed is without peers.

For me, Carolina has a ways to go in the presentation but the roar of the crowd in Torino will make her presentation look better than it is. IMO, she is a hot contender at the this point in time with a few months to work out the presentation.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Carolina did not struggle with her jumps at the Worlds. She did a 3x3x3 among many other triples and combos. And her speed is without peers.

Joe

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Joe, I'm not sure if you're referencing my comments, but just in case you are, I was talking about the TES tech calls / values from 2003/4 season in terms of Carolina's major jump challenges and improvements by World's 2005.. She made major improvements for 2005. When did she do a 3X3X3? I must have missed that one, but her 3X3X2 was spectacular in any case.

At 2005 Worlds, Carolina challenged Irina in particular on the 3/3/2 jump which had a base value score rivaling Irina's highest base value score for I's top jump. As far as I can tell even by the "objective" stuff, Carolina is a contender already, and more so if she improves half as much between now and the next season as she did between the last seasons....LOOK OUT!

DG

Doggygirl said:

MM - Why do you think "it is absurd to rate Sasha's chances ahead of Michelle's"....?????

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I don't know. I just think Michelle is the better skater. We'll see. Like I said, that's why they hold the contests.

MM

I wouldn't say it's absurd to place Sasha's chances above Michelle's, but I agree with MM that Michelle is the better skater.
It's a mistake IMO, to judge MK's chances in Torino, based on this year's Worlds. Clearly she was not prepared for COP and she didn't make the podium because of that. (although, even with that, she was oh so close)
Michelle will not go into this season the same way. Considering that Nationals will be under COP this year, I believe you will see a vastly different Michelle. Whether she will win or not, I don't know. But to count her out is a huge mistake.