The Three Top Ladies of the Worlds

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 4, 2005

There's no way in hell this thread is going to stay in topic. It's not even a top 4 gals from worlds topic. It's has become a Sasha v. Michelle thread. How uncommon that is! Even if Carolina does win the Olys, it will still be Sasha skated better than Michelle.

Yes, DG, Carolina did a 3x3x2 and not a 3x3x3 except in practice. The combo was at high speed and much cleaner than Irina's. Irina has a tendency to cheat the loop by a half to 3/4 turn on the ice before takeoff. But then, how few skaters do not.

Joe

emma · Jun 4, 2005

doggygirl

emma said:
I have to go back and look at scores, but aren't Sasha's spins level 2 and 3 also? I mean in addition to being absolutley beautiful, aren't they technically 'advanced' too? In that regard, I could imagine Sasha 'going after' Irina (a points going after) in the spin department, and winning, since she has the beautiful positions, but also fast, well centered, change of position...

Someone will have to tell me out of those top three at worlds, who had the most difficult - technically - footwork; I'm thinking it was Irina, Carolina, then Sasha in that order. Irina's power/strength really shows through in her footwork, particularly all the one footed stuff, I'm wondering if this is an area where Carolina can work to put the pressure on Irina. I need someone to help me out with Sasha's footwork....i just don't know remember at the moment (coffee not kicked in fully yet).

I think in jumps Carlolina and Irina could potentially go head to head, with the later a real threat if her confidence/consistency holds (i'm thinking SP point advantage to carry into LP) and/or if Irina's health wavers. Without wanting to offend anyone, I think this will prove to be Sasha's achilles heel; NOT because she can't jump, but because it is where she falters in key competitions.

Cheoreography...here i think Sasha and Carolina in that order could really, really put pressure on Irina; unless Sasha decides to frontload to hit the jumps...then it will depend on Carolina's program.

So based on the scores you looked at, and editing the jump paragraph so that I'm suggesting Carolina may have the ability to overtake Irina on jumps (meaning change later in reference to confidence to mean former, i.e. carolina)...does this resonate with what you were saying based on analysis of the scores you looked at for worlds?

Now, as you stated, we can't compare Michelle or Irina's improvement over time as we don't have scores for two years from them to compare. But, since many on this thread don't agree with the premise for looking 'just' at the top three from worlds'...we could try to bring in Michelle here too by talking about just about world's and look at all four or 5 or 6 of the top finishers in terms of base value, technical marks for the different areas (steps, jumps, spins, etc) and see who might challenge whom in which area/ who might be able to improve relatively easily in which area etc....I just can't do this right now, but in the effort to continue dialoguing suggest in might be interesting.

Doggygirl · Jun 4, 2005

emma said:
So based on the scores you looked at, and editing the jump paragraph so that I'm suggesting Carolina may have the ability to overtake Irina on jumps (meaning change later in reference to confidence to mean former, i.e. carolina)...does this resonate with what you were saying based on analysis of the scores you looked at for worlds?

Now, as you stated, we can't compare Michelle or Irina's improvement over time as we don't have scores for two years from them to compare. But, since many on this thread don't agree with the premise for looking 'just' at the top three from worlds'...we could try to bring in Michelle here too by talking about just about world's and look at all four or 5 or 6 of the top finishers in terms of base value, technical marks for the different areas (steps, jumps, spins, etc) and see who might challenge whom in which area/ who might be able to improve relatively easily in which area etc....I just can't do this right now, but in the effort to continue dialoguing suggest in might be interesting.

Hi Emma. The thing I love most about COP is the ability to at least look at the technical side of the performances in a somewhat objective way. The subjective criteria, mainly contained in the PCS (but IMO, flowing over to GOE on the tech side) will always be there to some significant degree - that's just the nature of the sport IMO.

I find the base values interesting to review technically, because that really speaks to what each skater successfully (enough to get the technical call anyway) on the day of the competition. It was very close among the top 4, but Sasha actually came away with the highest base value overall. (And I have only pulled score sheets for the LP - not the SP or QR which all obviously matter too)

Irina laid down a great program, and had no negative GOE on any elements.

Sasha had negative GOE on 3 elements.

Carolina had negative GOE on 2 elements, and started with the lowest base value overall - both jump and non-jump elements believe it or not.

MK had negative GOE on 2 elements.

In terms of the balance between negative and positive GOE, MK and CK ended up with a total TES score very near their base values. (of course MK's fall impacted that in a big way for her). SC and IS ended up much more significantly on the positive side of GOE, but of course IS's clean skate (no negative, all positive) GOE appropriately won the day IMO.

I hope at the Oly's we see more clean performances like IS's LP. That will make for a deep field and interesting competition.

DG

Carolina had the lowest Base Value

CDMM1991 · Jun 4, 2005

I don't understand why Carolina would have the lowest base value jump wise at all

CDMM1991 · Jun 4, 2005

Only five more posts away from my avatar! :biggrin:

Doggygirl · Jun 4, 2005

CDMM1991 said:
I don't understand why Carolina would have the lowest base value jump wise at all

The best way these days IMO to understand it is to look at the score sheets. Carolina's BIG jump was the 3F/3T/2Lo The base values in the top 4 for jumps and also all else was really very close. Irinas BIG jump was the 3L/3Lo. Those were the two "double digit" base value LP jumps put out there in terms of base value. But it's the whole program, so all the other jump content (and non-jump element content) matters too.

Don't forget that Irina lost 5 points in base value with that extra 3Lo that didn't count at all. Irina would have been the highest in jump base value had she done some other tripple and not gotten into the Zayak rule. But that's "woulda, coulda, shoulda" which goes nowhere. I'm sure Irina won't make that mistake again next year.

DG

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 4, 2005

DG -

Irina laid down a great program, and had no negative GOE on any elements.

If you have the tape, appreciate you check and see if Irina did not travel on spins. I think travlled spins get some sort of GOE deductions. Maybe they all travlled on spins. I can't recall.

Joe

Mathman · Jun 4, 2005

Joe, I think Doggygirl is talking about the GOEs that the judges actually gave, not what the rules say. The judges gave Irina plus GOEs on all four of her spins:

Flying Camel (level 2)............... +.50 GOE
Layback (Bielmann, level 3)...... +.86 GOE
Combination spin (level 3)......... +.29 GOE
Final combination spin (level 2)..+.79 GOE

No deductions or negative GOEs (Oh, those Bielmann's!)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 4, 2005

Mathman said:
Joe, I think Doggygirl is talking about the GOEs that the judges actually gave, not what the rules say. The judges gave Irina plus GOEs on all four of her spins:

Flying Camel (level 2)............... +.50 GOE
Layback (Bielmann, level 3)...... +.86 GOE
Combination spin (level 3)......... +.29 GOE
Final combination spin (level 2)..+.79 GOE

No deductions or negative GOEs (Oh, those Bielmann's!)Mathman

thanks mm - not putting Irina down but she did some travelling and since I didn't get a look at the scores I presumed there were deductions - not just for her but for all skaters who travel on spins. I guess travelling spins are ok. am I correct?

Joe

Mathman · Jun 4, 2005

CDMM1991 said:
I don't understand why Carolina would have the lowest base value jump wise at all.

CDMM, you can see exactly why by checking out the detailed scores at the ISU website:

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2005/WC05_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Comparing the base values for the jump elements between Carolina and Michelle, for instance:

Michelle (third place in the LP)

2A ...................3.3
3F+2T+2Lo.....8.3
3Z-2T..............7.3
3F....................5.5
3S....................5.0
3T+2T..............5.8

Total..........41.8

Carolina (fourth place in the LP)

3F+3T+2Lo.....11.0
3Z+2T...............7.3
3Lo....................5.0
2Lo....................1.7
2A+3S (Seq).....6.8
3T......................4.4
2A......................3.6

Total...........39.8

As Doggygirl says, one of the good things about the New Judging System is that we don't have to guess why one skater got more points than another, it's right there in black and white.

Will Carolina up the ante for the coming season?

Maybe she won't have to. That double loop that she used one of her seven jumping passes on must have been intended to be something bigger.

Mathman

Mathman · Jun 4, 2005

Joesitz said:
I guess travelling spins are ok. am I correct?

As far as I can tell, yes, you are correct. The judges are not marking down traveling spins. Getting a level three by incorporating several changes of position seems to be much more important that the quality of the spin.

This is one of the things that Michelle candidly admits that she didn't understand about the CoP last year, and it cost her. She expected to be able to do easier spins, and make up the difference in positive GOE by doing them exceptionally well.

She found out that the judges don't care about that -- the whole ball game is getting a level 3. Note that two of Irina's spins were level three and two were level two -- and she got positive GOEs on top of that.

Last year Michelle said she hurt her back trying to work in more changes of position, especially in her layback. This was probably the determining factor that caused her to withdraw from Skate America last year, and subsequently from the whole Grand Prix. (Although with Michelle, you never know -- she never complains, never explains.)

Mathman

cianni · Jun 4, 2005

Top 4

MM and Joe hate to say this but if its Irinas traveling it gets ignored. I cant compare or give an opinion because the rules really are a joke. Irina skated a great FS at Worlds and deserved her win. However for 10 yrs. I have said she is over marked big time and havent changed my mind even now. Cohen will surprise us one day and skate a clean comp. in the meantime we settle for the farse they call giving points. Are they really reflective of the skating or gifting the skater. Im really moving away from supporting the sport because its so predictable. Not sure who will win OLYS but predictable who will be overmarked. Lets hope the skater who skates the best that night wins no matter who that is and we wont scratch our heads and ask how did that skater deserve those points here im in la la land. Im am not going to be surprised if skating goes bye bye if the winner doesnt deserve it.

emma · Jun 4, 2005

ok, no I'm really confused too. Don't Michelle's base value points add up to 35.2 here? I'm really confused.

Also, I was surprised that with Irina's uncounted Loop she still received higher base value than Kostner...I love these score sheets for clarifying stuff...i'm gonna try to check Irina's score break down later to compare. But, in thinking about this thread, I was saying earlier that I think this is one area where Kostner can challenge Irina (jumps)...anyone agree or disagree? I somehow imagine Kostner doing a 3x3 in the short, racking up points, going into the Long in the running, and then doing a 3x3x3...

Mathman · Jun 4, 2005

Cianni, strange as it seems, I think most of the ISU judges agree with you. They just want to give the prize to the person that they think skated best, so they rig the points to make it come out that way. At worlds, Irina skated best, so they gave her huge whopping component scores just to make sure no one else snuck in their because of vagaries of the New Judging System.

Sort of like the old judging system.

MM.

Doggygirl · Jun 4, 2005

Joesitz said:
thanks mm - not putting Irina down but she did some travelling and since I didn't get a look at the scores I presumed there were deductions - not just for her but for all skaters who travel on spins. I guess travelling spins are ok. am I correct?

Joe

Hi Joe. As MM surmised, I was looking at the judges score sheets, not speaking from my own opinion. GOE is a tricky subject because in theory, a skater could have "positive" aspects and "negative" aspects (i.e. travelling on spins) and that could be where the nitty gritty is hidden. There are a number of criteria that supposedly go into the GOE determination.

Irina's spins scores from World's LP:

FCSp2: Base 2.3, with GOE, 2.8 (avg .5 GOE)
LSp3: Base 2.4, with GOE 3.26 (avg .86 GOE)
CoSP2: Base 3.0, with GOE 3.29 (avg .29 GOE)

Sasha's spins were called:

LSp2: Base 1.6, with GOE, 2.46 (avg .86 GOE)
FSSp2: Base 2.3, with GOE 2.66 (avg .36 GOE)
CCoSp2: Base 3.0, with GOE 4.0 (avg 1.0 GOE)

So according to the judges, Irina beat Sasha in the spin contest 9.35 to 9.12 assuming I've done my math correctly - and LOL there ain't no guarantee on that.

I think Sasha has an open window of opportunity to gain points by improving her spins - something she's already good at that she might be able to get better at. (i.e. from level 2 to level 3 and now 4).

For my $ I like CoP just for the score sheets. It's better then the old 6.0 tech mark which didn't involve providing ANY information publically for the benefit of skaters or fans.

DG

Mathman · Jun 4, 2005

emma said:
ok, now I'm really confused too. Don't Michelle's base value points add up to 35.2 here? I'm really confused.

Oops, sorry. I left out her solo triple Lutz, for an extra 6.6.

Doggygirl · Jun 4, 2005

Mathman said:
Will Carolina up the ante for the coming season?

Maybe she won't have to. That double loop that she used one of her seven jumping passes on must have been intended to be something bigger.

Mathman

The difference in base value for a 3Lo v. a 2Lo is 3.5 points. So that's exactly where IMO Carolina lost points in the jump fest at the base value level. And Joe mentioned earlier that Carolina was doing a 3/3/3 in practice. If her 3F/3T/2Lo was meant to have a 3Lo on the end of it, add another 3.5 points for that one. Carolina is definately "in the hunt" for jump points, and I hope during this off season it's "her time" to grow in the non-jump areas as well.

DG

Mathman · Jun 4, 2005

Doggygirl said:
So according to the judges, Irina beat Sasha in the spin contest 9.35 to 9.12 assuming I've done my math correctly - and LOL there ain't no guarantee on that.

A+ on the math, but I think you left out one spin apiece for Irina and Sasha. Irina also had a CCoSp2, base value 3.0, average COE (factored) .79, and Sasha also had a FCoSp2, base 3.0, GOE .43.

So I think the totals on the spin elements should be

Irina: Base 10.70, GOE 2.49, Total 13.14

Sasha: Base 9.9, GOE 2.65, Total 12.55

If this is right, then Sasha did get slightly higher GOEs than Irina, although Irina's base values were higher. I agree with this. Sasha's spins are prettier, Irina's are harder, at least according to the CoP criteria.

So maybe Irina did get penalized a little bit for travelling spins. As Doggygirl says, many factors, pro and con, are bundled into the single GOE mark.

Mathman

PS. Doggygirl, I apologize and take back what I said about it being absurd to think that Sasha could be rated ahead of Michelle. You know I have my little irrational streak where MK is concerned, LOL.

Doggygirl · Jun 4, 2005

Mathman said:
A+ on the math, but I think you left out one spin apiece for Irina and Sasha. Irina also had a CCoSp2, base value 3.0, average COE (factored) .79, and Sasha also had a FCoSp2, base 3.0, GOE .43.

So I think the totals on the spin elements should be

Irina: Base 10.70, GOE 2.49, Total 13.14

Sasha: Base 9.9, GOE 2.65, Total 12.55

If this is right, then Sasha did get slightly higher GOEs than Irina, although Irina's base values were higher. I agree with this. Sasha's spins are prettier, Irina's are harder, at least according to the CoP criteria.

So maybe Irina did get penalized a little bit for travelling spins. As Doggygirl says, many factors, pro and con, are bundled into the single GOE mark.

Mathman

PS. Doggygirl, I apologize and take back what I said about it being absurd to think that Sasha could be rated ahead of Michelle. You know I have my little irrational streak where MK is concerned, LOL.

You are absolutely right!!! I just realized I left out one spin each on the score sheets. Sasha got an extra 3.43 including GOE for the one I left out, and Irina got an extra 3.79 for the one I left out. So that actually extended Irina's spin dominance according to the judges. But what do THEY know??? :love:

DG

Mathman · Jun 4, 2005

Doggygirl said:
The difference in base value for a 3Lo v. a 2Lo is 3.5 points. So that's exactly where IMO Carolina lost points in the jump fest at the base value level. And Joe mentioned earlier that Carolina was doing a 3/3/3 in practice. If her 3F/3T/2Lo was meant to have a 3Lo on the end of it, add another 3.5 points for that one. Carolina is definately "in the hunt" for jump points, and I hope during this off season it's "her time" to grow in the non-jump areas as well.

There's still something strange about that 2 loop. She already did a solo 3 loop. So she couldn't do another one unless it was in combination. But she had her two combinations and a sequence in there, too, so she could do another combination, either. (Not to mention, if she had really planned a 3 loop at the end of her first combination, that would make three 3 loops -- shades of Irina!)

I wonder if she got confused in her program, intending a different jump altogether, then when she realized that she had already done her solo 3 loop, she had to sign off with a double to get any points at all. Pretty quick thinking, if that's really how it went!

Mathman

The Three Top Ladies of the Worlds

Joesitz (RIP)

emma

Doggygirl

CDMM1991

CDMM1991

Doggygirl

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Mathman

cianni

emma

Mathman

Doggygirl

Mathman

Doggygirl

Mathman

Doggygirl

Mathman

Similar threads

Connect with us