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Thread: Men Flutzing??

  1. #1
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Men Flutzing??

    Now bear in mind I'm getting older and my brain ain't what it used to be. While I recall numerous posts and entire threads at times about ladies and flutzing, I can't seem to remember posts/threads about men flutzing.

    So...is that because men don't typically flutz? (I still have a hard time recognizing it unless watching in slo-mo with the right camera angle!) Or is it just not talked about as much? Just based on physical differences between men and ladies maybe it's just easier for the men to get the jump right?

    Digging deep here for off season topics.

    DG

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    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Mathman....HELP!!

    Why do I always make typos in the titles??? Can you rescue me once again??

    DG

  3. #3
    Down With It
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    Posters can't fix their titles once they've typed them in?

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    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    If I can, I sure haven't figured out how! But LOL, I'm computer challenged.


    DG

  5. #5
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    DG - The Men seldom flutz. They enjoy the pole vault take off which can only be accomplished with a perfect lutz. The Ladies, it seems to me, want to get it over with and get into some sort of ballet-like spin. However, it seems the flutz is an American thing. the Ladies in Japan and Russia do a perfect Lutz.

    When men do flutz, it is almost without exception a take off on the FLAT and not the BACK INSIDE edge.

    Flat takeoff plus Lutz spells FLUTZ. (The original definition of the flutz.)

    BI edge takeoff plus Lutz spells FLIP. (Originated by Tara Lipinski, I believe.)

    Joe

  6. #6
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    Men who flutz

    Men I have seen flutz include:

    Rudy Galindo
    Emmanuel Sandhu
    Tim Goebel
    Takeshi Honda

    These men flutz on a regular basis.

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    Women, the lutz and the history of the flutz

    The first woman to do a triple lutz was Denise Biellmann in 1978, and throughout the next 5 or so years, the triple lutz done by a woman was rare to see. Biellmann did/and does, a true lutz.

    In the 1980's, the triple lutz was not performed by many top ranked Ladies' competitors. Elizabeth Manley performed a true lutz in her career through 1988. Midori Ito was doing true triple lutzes as early as 1985. Kristi Yamaguchi started doing them in competition in the late 1980's. Kristi was one of the first to do two triple lutzes in a program. Tonya Harding started to do them in the mid-1980's

    Kristi sometimes flutzed, and sometimes didn't.

    In the 1990's, the triple lutz became standard, and it was then we saw the beginnings of women trying to perform a triple lutz to get the high marks without having good technique.

    The originator and Queen of the Flutz was Nicole Bobek---the worst flutzing we have ever seen. Since then, notable flutzers have been:

    Tara Lipinski (better by Nagano)
    Andrea Gardner (one of the worst ever)
    Sasha Cohen (she can't even do a single lutz without flutzing---check out the warm up for the LP in SLC)
    Sarah Hughes (one of the worst ever)

    and yes, Joe, it does seem to be a distinctly American issue.

  8. #8
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    actually it's not the only american thing anymore!! Fumie Suguri constantly flutzes, so does Mao Asada, Mai Asada. As for Mai, she doesnt' even try to cover up! She stays on the strong inside edge throughout. Aslo Yukina Ota does flutz. Yoshie Onda takes off on the flat eges and so does Irina Slutskaya.

  9. #9
    Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777
    As for Mai, she doesnt' even try to cover up! She stays on the strong inside edge throughout.
    How do you tell know she's not doing a flip? Is it because she's already done 2 flips or something?

  10. #10
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I just wish the fans would call it a flip when the takeoff is from a back inside edge, because that is the definition of a flip.

    A flutz is taken off from the flat. That is what MK does when she doesn't hit the edge. Sasha is getting closer to the flat. I think most of the boys listed above also do a true flutz and not a flip.

    Joe

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiSk8Fan
    Men I have seen flutz include:

    Rudy Galindo
    Emmanuel Sandhu
    Tim Goebel
    Takeshi Honda

    These men flutz on a regular basis.
    I haven't noticed that Eman flutzes, but I will definitely be watching. But ITA with Timmay and Takeshi and their flutzing....and I love Takeshi. Hope he comes back strong this year....with a real lutz, perhaps?


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fallsauce
    How do you tell know she's not doing a flip? Is it because she's already done 2 flips or something?
    Someone on FSU explained in detail on FSU why a "lip" is not a lutz and why a "flutz" is not a flip. (I thought it was gkelly, but I can't find the post.) The take-off and landing edges are not the only factors in determining what defines a jump. IIRC, the explanation was that the direction of the entrance compared to the direction of the rotation is as or more important in defining the jump. The ISU must agree, because an incorrect take-off edge is considered a deductable offense, not a re-definition of the jump.

  13. #13
    Rinkside
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    You can usually tell a flutz from a flip because the skater usually begins the jump entry on the correct edge (outer) and then changes to a flat or inner edge before take-off.

    I'm not sure who started this, but a number of women have been doing the shorter entry into a lutz with a cross-foot. I'm not sure if that's supposed to make it easier or disguise a flutz more.

  14. #14
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Even with the take off Hockeyfan. In a lutz the head of the skater tends to go to the other side of the back outside edge and with the rotation turning the head goes to the forward position and the landing to the position of all back outside landings.

    In a flip, the take off from the back inside edge, the head of the skater takes off facing in the forward position, or a tilt to one side, and doesn't change until the usual back outside edge as all jumps do.

    The flutz as it is accepted from a back inside edge to me is a flip by definition. I couldn't care less about how others see this jump including the ISU. Can you imagine a lutz with long back out edge rocking over to a takeoff from a decided back inside edge and calling it a lutz and not a flip? Sorry, I can't buy that.

    Joe

  15. #15
    average opinionated skate fan
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    The answer to why more women flutz than men is reasonably simple as explained to me by a sports therapist. The lutz is the hardest backward triple because the edge MUST be sustained on the back outside edge (or it's something else, but not a lutz.) Then factor in that the body is toe picking in to vault into the air and turning the OPPOSITE direction of the edge. This takes tremendous torque and most women and some men do not have the leg strength to hold the edge while making the oppositional direction turns in the air. Usually men can achieve this muscle mass more easlily that some ladies can. If you notice, the women who do have "true lutzes" listed in some of the post above demonstrate what I'm stating...Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Surya Bonalay (who sometimes did flutz, but most times didn't) and Denise Beilmann all had tremendous musculature in their legs.

    Also, the lutz is VERY complex. As mentioned above it may be one of the few hybrid jumps since it envolves almost an edge-jump quality for the setup and doesn't turn into a "jump" until it rises of the ice simulataneously with the toe pick. One of the reasons Sarah flutzed so badly is that her high leg kick for the vault always threw her off her edge. This is also a common problem for the ladies. Just one explanation....sk8m8

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