Men Flutzing?? | Golden Skate

Men Flutzing??

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Now bear in mind I'm getting older and my brain ain't what it used to be. While I recall numerous posts and entire threads at times about ladies and flutzing, I can't seem to remember posts/threads about men flutzing.

So...is that because men don't typically flutz? (I still have a hard time recognizing it unless watching in slo-mo with the right camera angle!) Or is it just not talked about as much? Just based on physical differences between men and ladies maybe it's just easier for the men to get the jump right?

Digging deep here for off season topics. ;)

DG
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Mathman....HELP!!

Why do I always make typos in the titles??? Can you rescue me once again??

DG
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
If I can, I sure haven't figured out how! But LOL, I'm computer challenged.


DG
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
DG - The Men seldom flutz. They enjoy the pole vault take off which can only be accomplished with a perfect lutz. The Ladies, it seems to me, want to get it over with and get into some sort of ballet-like spin. However, it seems the flutz is an American thing. the Ladies in Japan and Russia do a perfect Lutz.

When men do flutz, it is almost without exception a take off on the FLAT and not the BACK INSIDE edge.

Flat takeoff plus Lutz spells FLUTZ. (The original definition of the flutz.)

BI edge takeoff plus Lutz spells FLIP. (Originated by Tara Lipinski, I believe.)

Joe
 

ChiSk8Fan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Men who flutz

Men I have seen flutz include:

Rudy Galindo
Emmanuel Sandhu
Tim Goebel
Takeshi Honda

These men flutz on a regular basis.
 

ChiSk8Fan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Women, the lutz and the history of the flutz

The first woman to do a triple lutz was Denise Biellmann in 1978, and throughout the next 5 or so years, the triple lutz done by a woman was rare to see. Biellmann did/and does, a true lutz.

In the 1980's, the triple lutz was not performed by many top ranked Ladies' competitors. Elizabeth Manley performed a true lutz in her career through 1988. Midori Ito was doing true triple lutzes as early as 1985. Kristi Yamaguchi started doing them in competition in the late 1980's. Kristi was one of the first to do two triple lutzes in a program. Tonya Harding started to do them in the mid-1980's

Kristi sometimes flutzed, and sometimes didn't.

In the 1990's, the triple lutz became standard, and it was then we saw the beginnings of women trying to perform a triple lutz to get the high marks without having good technique.

The originator and Queen of the Flutz was Nicole Bobek---the worst flutzing we have ever seen. Since then, notable flutzers have been:

Tara Lipinski (better by Nagano)
Andrea Gardner (one of the worst ever)
Sasha Cohen (she can't even do a single lutz without flutzing---check out the warm up for the LP in SLC)
Sarah Hughes (one of the worst ever)

and yes, Joe, it does seem to be a distinctly American issue.
 

ks777

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
actually it's not the only american thing anymore!! Fumie Suguri constantly flutzes, so does Mao Asada, Mai Asada. As for Mai, she doesnt' even try to cover up! She stays on the strong inside edge throughout. Aslo Yukina Ota does flutz. Yoshie Onda takes off on the flat eges and so does Irina Slutskaya.
 

fallsauce

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2004
ks777 said:
As for Mai, she doesnt' even try to cover up! She stays on the strong inside edge throughout.

How do you tell know she's not doing a flip? Is it because she's already done 2 flips or something?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I just wish the fans would call it a flip when the takeoff is from a back inside edge, because that is the definition of a flip.

A flutz is taken off from the flat. That is what MK does when she doesn't hit the edge. Sasha is getting closer to the flat. I think most of the boys listed above also do a true flutz and not a flip.

Joe
 

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
ChiSk8Fan said:
Men I have seen flutz include:

Rudy Galindo
Emmanuel Sandhu
Tim Goebel
Takeshi Honda

These men flutz on a regular basis.

I haven't noticed that Eman flutzes, but I will definitely be watching. But ITA with Timmay and Takeshi and their flutzing....and I love Takeshi. Hope he comes back strong this year....with a real lutz, perhaps?

:)
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
fallsauce said:
How do you tell know she's not doing a flip? Is it because she's already done 2 flips or something?
Someone on FSU explained in detail on FSU why a "lip" is not a lutz and why a "flutz" is not a flip. (I thought it was gkelly, but I can't find the post.) The take-off and landing edges are not the only factors in determining what defines a jump. IIRC, the explanation was that the direction of the entrance compared to the direction of the rotation is as or more important in defining the jump. The ISU must agree, because an incorrect take-off edge is considered a deductable offense, not a re-definition of the jump.
 

TwizzlerS

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
You can usually tell a flutz from a flip because the skater usually begins the jump entry on the correct edge (outer) and then changes to a flat or inner edge before take-off.

I'm not sure who started this, but a number of women have been doing the shorter entry into a lutz with a cross-foot. I'm not sure if that's supposed to make it easier or disguise a flutz more.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Even with the take off Hockeyfan. In a lutz the head of the skater tends to go to the other side of the back outside edge and with the rotation turning the head goes to the forward position and the landing to the position of all back outside landings.

In a flip, the take off from the back inside edge, the head of the skater takes off facing in the forward position, or a tilt to one side, and doesn't change until the usual back outside edge as all jumps do.

The flutz as it is accepted from a back inside edge to me is a flip by definition. I couldn't care less about how others see this jump including the ISU. Can you imagine a lutz with long back out edge rocking over to a takeoff from a decided back inside edge and calling it a lutz and not a flip? Sorry, I can't buy that.

Joe
 

sk8m8

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
The answer to why more women flutz than men is reasonably simple as explained to me by a sports therapist. The lutz is the hardest backward triple because the edge MUST be sustained on the back outside edge (or it's something else, but not a lutz.) Then factor in that the body is toe picking in to vault into the air and turning the OPPOSITE direction of the edge. This takes tremendous torque and most women and some men do not have the leg strength to hold the edge while making the oppositional direction turns in the air. Usually men can achieve this muscle mass more easlily that some ladies can. If you notice, the women who do have "true lutzes" listed in some of the post above demonstrate what I'm stating...Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Surya Bonalay (who sometimes did flutz, but most times didn't) and Denise Beilmann all had tremendous musculature in their legs.

Also, the lutz is VERY complex. As mentioned above it may be one of the few hybrid jumps since it envolves almost an edge-jump quality for the setup and doesn't turn into a "jump" until it rises of the ice simulataneously with the toe pick. One of the reasons Sarah flutzed so badly is that her high leg kick for the vault always threw her off her edge. This is also a common problem for the ladies. Just one explanation....sk8m8
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
To set the record straight:

A "flutz" as it has been dubbed, is a Lutz that has turned into a flip by not properly taking off. It can deceivingly look like a Lutz because the skater starts out doing a Lutz, but ends up cheating because it easy to turn the jump into a flip without even thinking.

All jumps take concentration. The Lutz is one of the most difficult jumps to perform because of the take off - It takes off from a LBO edge (with toe pick assist), turns, then lands on the RBO edge.

I never mastered the Lutz. I could do a great Flip, but my Lutz lacked height. I did not turn it into a Flip, however.

I am not sure about why more men are able to perform a true Lutz compared to the ladies. I had not thought about it. I think part of the problem with skaters today is their lack of learning figures and concentrating on edge control. This really helps with jumps such as the Lutz. It just becomes automatic. Dancers learn proper edge control.

Maybe someone should send a message to the ladies to concentrate more on edge control. Turning the jump into a flip is more or less a lazy habit that should be corrected right away by ones' coach.

Here is a great site that explains the difference between the Lutz and Flip:

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_lutz.htm
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To add to what Sk8m8 said, I have read that the main reason that men can do a Lutz better than ladies is because of greater upper body strength. Once you are in the air you have to throw your body back in the opposite direction from the one that your feet want to take you.

OT -- To Red Dog and Doggygirl. If you make a typo in the title of a post, you have only a small window of time in which you can correct it. After that, you can't. The reason for this is that after other people have posted, the originator of the thread doesn't own it any more -- it belongs to everyone, so it wouldn't be fair to go back and change the title -- something like that.

Similarly, you can edit your post for free only within a few seconds after you post. After that, the post will be tagged as "edited." The reason for that is so that you can't make a fool out of someone by going back and changing your post after someone replies, making it look like the other person is crazy. I mean, you can do it, but it will be obvious what you did.

(I, of course, can do anything. BWAAA-HA-HA-HA-HA! :p )

MM :)

PS. I hope you all appreciate that I am up at 4:25 AM doing my cheerful duty.:laugh:

PPS. Joe, I thought a Lutz attempt taking of from the flat was called a "Flatz."

OK, I'm going back to bed now.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
PPS. Joe, I thought a Lutz attempt taking of from the flat was called a "Flatz."

OK, I'm going back to bed now.
Could be, MM, but in either case, it is not a true lutz.

OK, I just woke up and now to the gym.

Joe
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Thanks for all the detailed info...

As an equal opportunity group, we'll have to make sure we call out the men who flutz once the new season gets here. ;)

It make sense that the general on average physical differences between men and women (i.e. the comments about leg muscles and upper body strength) have an impact.

Ladskater, I'm sure you have a good point about the demise of figures impacting on average edge control. LOL - That's probably why the Americans became the first notorious flutzers - I bet the training programs here dropped figures like a hot potato ahead of the rest of the world. I'm guessing this only because from casual reading, etc. it sounds like some of the other countries training programs are probably stricter than they sometimes are here. Just a speculation though.

MM - thanks as always for coming to my rescue!

DG
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Doggygirl said:
Ladskater, I'm sure you have a good point about the demise of figures impacting on average edge control. LOL - That's probably why the Americans became the first notorious flutzers - I bet the training programs here dropped figures like a hot potato ahead of the rest of the world.

That's not true. Figures were dropped from international competition in 1990-91, and the US dropped them from domestic competitions at the novice through senior levels at the same time, as did most other countries. However, they continued to require them, both as tests and in qualifying competitions, up through intermediate level until 1994. Many other countries (but not Canada) dropped them completely right away.
 
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