Men Flutzing??

[Ladskater]

To set the record straight:

A "flutz" as it has been dubbed, is a Lutz that has turned into a flip by not properly taking off. It can deceivingly look like a Lutz because the skater starts out doing a Lutz, but ends up cheating because it easy to turn the jump into a flip without even thinking.

All jumps take concentration. The Lutz is one of the most difficult jumps to perform because of the take off - It takes off from a LBO edge (with toe pick assist), turns, then lands on the RBO edge.

I never mastered the Lutz. I could do a great Flip, but my Lutz lacked height. I did not turn it into a Flip, however.

I am not sure about why more men are able to perform a true Lutz compared to the ladies. I had not thought about it. I think part of the problem with skaters today is their lack of learning figures and concentrating on edge control. This really helps with jumps such as the Lutz. It just becomes automatic. Dancers learn proper edge control.

Maybe someone should send a message to the ladies to concentrate more on edge control. Turning the jump into a flip is more or less a lazy habit that should be corrected right away by ones' coach.

Here is a great site that explains the difference between the Lutz and Flip:

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_lutz.htm

[Mathman]

To add to what Sk8m8 said, I have read that the main reason that men can do a Lutz better than ladies is because of greater upper body strength. Once you are in the air you have to throw your body back in the opposite direction from the one that your feet want to take you.

OT -- To Red Dog and Doggygirl. If you make a typo in the title of a post, you have only a small window of time in which you can correct it. After that, you can't. The reason for this is that after other people have posted, the originator of the thread doesn't own it any more -- it belongs to everyone, so it wouldn't be fair to go back and change the title -- something like that.

Similarly, you can edit your post for free only within a few seconds after you post. After that, the post will be tagged as "edited." The reason for that is so that you can't make a fool out of someone by going back and changing your post after someone replies, making it look like the other person is crazy. I mean, you can do it, but it will be obvious what you did.

(I, of course, can do anything. BWAAA-HA-HA-HA-HA! )

MM

PS. I hope you all appreciate that I am up at 4:25 AM doing my cheerful duty.

PPS. Joe, I thought a Lutz attempt taking of from the flat was called a "Flatz."

OK, I'm going back to bed now.

[Joesitz]

PPS. Joe, I thought a Lutz attempt taking of from the flat was called a "Flatz."

OK, I'm going back to bed now.

Could be, MM, but in either case, it is not a true lutz.

OK, I just woke up and now to the gym.

Joe

[Doggygirl]

As an equal opportunity group, we'll have to make sure we call out the men who flutz once the new season gets here.

It make sense that the general on average physical differences between men and women (i.e. the comments about leg muscles and upper body strength) have an impact.

Ladskater, I'm sure you have a good point about the demise of figures impacting on average edge control. LOL - That's probably why the Americans became the first notorious flutzers - I bet the training programs here dropped figures like a hot potato ahead of the rest of the world. I'm guessing this only because from casual reading, etc. it sounds like some of the other countries training programs are probably stricter than they sometimes are here. Just a speculation though.

MM - thanks as always for coming to my rescue!

DG

[gkelly]

Ladskater, I'm sure you have a good point about the demise of figures impacting on average edge control. LOL - That's probably why the Americans became the first notorious flutzers - I bet the training programs here dropped figures like a hot potato ahead of the rest of the world.

That's not true. Figures were dropped from international competition in 1990-91, and the US dropped them from domestic competitions at the novice through senior levels at the same time, as did most other countries. However, they continued to require them, both as tests and in qualifying competitions, up through intermediate level until 1994. Many other countries (but not Canada) dropped them completely right away.

[Doggygirl]

That's not true. Figures were dropped from international competition in 1990-91, and the US dropped them from domestic competitions at the novice through senior levels at the same time, as did most other countries. However, they continued to require them, both as tests and in qualifying competitions, up through intermediate level until 1994. Many other countries (but not Canada) dropped them completely right away.

That's what I get for guessing. No wonder I never win the lottery.

DG

[brad640]

One reason women are singled out for flutzing more than men is that the lutz has been the benchmark jump for senior ladies since 92. Women need the 3z2t to be able to compete at the top level, and almost everyone can perform one, so the media have picked up on flutzing as a hot topic when covering big competitions like the Olympics. However, the ISU puts greater emphasis on exiting a jump cleanly and fully rotating the jump, while flawed entrances do not affect the scores. Recently skaters like Kostner and Ando have pushed the envelope by adding 3-3’s in the SP and the media buzz has centered on underrotating rather than flutzing. The media do not care if men flutz because the focus is on their 3a and quad combos.

Skaters who flutz are making a strategic decision to focus on aspects of their skating that judges reward rather than correcting the problem without getting credit in their scores. I imagine Sebestien and Volchkova would gladly trade their true lutzes for a world medal.

[Doggygirl]

Skaters who flutz are making a strategic decision to focus on aspects of their skating that judges reward rather than correcting the problem without getting credit in their scores. I imagine Sebestien and Volchkova would gladly trade their true lutzes for a world medal.

I'm sure truer words have never been spoken.

DG

[sk8m8]

Good news about figures...according to my friends that coach, more and more of them are being approach to teach "patch" (the standard name for skating figures). According to many of them, up and coming skaters are looking for the 'next edge' (no pun intended) in competition. With the CoP driving things now, skaters are looking for more edge control and flow to go with jumping/spinning abilities.

[jeff goldblum]

I think it's interesting to note that when I was recently viewing my tape of the 1996 World Championships, Midori Ito actually performed a flutz (the only triple one she did was in the warm-up, but it did take off of an inside edge).

I think the flutz is probably one of the most interesting topics in all of skating, and even more so to ponder why women do it more than the men. I honestly think anyone can do a true lutz with proper training, and I'm not necessarily sure I believe that it comes from inherent differences between the anatomy of males and females. I don't know that I'd buy the excuse that women aren't as strong as men. There are so many different factors that can cause a flutz, and since some women are perfectly capable of performing a true luts and some men a flutz, it makes me believe it's more due to habit than anything. If anatomical differences are to be considered, then I think one to add to the list might be the difference between a man's hips and a woman's (perhaps the more correct term would be pelvis).

As far as the nomenclature goes, I'd have to agree with those saying that a flutz is a lutz that has started on an outside edge and has turned to an inside "accidentally." I remember reading a long time ago that deductions were taken for a blatant change of edge. To me a flutz has always be regarded as a jump in which the skater is clearly attempting to do a lutz, but changes edges on the take off.

[Hikaru]

I always thought one of the major reasosn for "flutzing" in the ladies was because their center of gravity is on her hips, so when picking with the free leg it turns out to be more difficult to keep the leg stable, whereas the center of gravity in the men is on the shoulders. I could be wrong of course, and I agree with both MM and the poster (sorry I forgot the name!) that mention the torque in the movement of the lutz.

[Joesitz]

As far as the nomenclature goes, I'd have to agree with those saying that a flutz is a lutz that has started on an outside edge and has turned to an inside "accidentally." I remember reading a long time ago that deductions were taken for a blatant change of edge. To me a flutz has always be regarded as a jump in which the skater is clearly attempting to do a lutz, but changes edges on the take off.

Lots of "accidents" with that lutz!!! Nothing about technique is there? skaters who have poor technique with the lutz should be forgiven year after year after year because it is just an "accident" year after tear after year. Nothing blatant, is there? The skater does not have to ever really do a true lutz? Am I correct?

Unfortunately, these "accidents" are accepted and judged separately. A skater starts his long back outside edge and then the skater rocks over into a flip edge before jumping, so the deductions depend on how badly the legs were apart in the flip.

A skater can get full base points for the attempted lutz and if he turns it into a decent flip just a minus 1 GOE for the attempted-lutz/accidental-flip. Beats really learning the jump. Get high points and satisfy the Zayack rule at the same time.

Should coaches tell their students if you can't really do a true lutz then work on a good flutz? We could then eliminate the lutz as an element in figure skating and just have a flutz as an element. OK?

Joe

[jeff goldblum]

That's not what I said at all. I said I believe anyone can do a true lutz, so there's really no need for all this talk of women not having enough strength in their upper bodies, and whatever else was said. I also never mentioned anything about whether skaters should be able to "get away" with doing a flutz, but only mentioned how the USFSA was grading jumps in terms of how much of a deduction should be taken. I think a skater like Sasha Cohen or Jenny Kirk should be penalized for the error. They are two skaters who clearly do not make any attempt to stay on the back outside edge, but merely want to complete the jump. There are other skaters who clearly take off from a back inside edge but are not blatantly just letting that edge roll over. I think the term blatant has a lot to do with whether or not a skater is trying to stay on that back outside edge or disguise that the flutzing is going on.

I'd like to believe that a reputable coach would instill good technique on this jump and not allow any of his students to do a flutz, as well as correct bad technique taught by previous coaches. But unfortunately, like you said, skaters will just routinely do a flutz because it is still counted as an attempt at a lutz. But don't you think the deductions given are fair? How much should they really be deducting for such a mistake? There aren't really any other consistently made errors in the execution of another element in skating with which to compare. The one I thought was always distracting was skaters doing back sit spins on inside edges, but now under CoP that's actually considered more difficult.

[jeff goldblum]

On the word blatant, dictionary.com explains that "blatant emphasizes the failure to conceal the act."

[emma]

Jeff..I like your analysis a lot....but maybe that's becuase I like any analysis that moves away from the simplistic and easily disproved "inherent difference between men and women"....and with the Lutz, you are probably right that there are numerous factors that go into LEARNING good technique and executing it when it counts.

Joe, do you think that the overlooked/not penalized flutz was MORE of a problem under 6 and not penalized enough, but somewhat more than before, under CoP. Or do you see the problem as equally bad (in terms of allowing bad technique) under both systems (at least so far)?

I agree with you - I think - that whether it is traveling on spins, or flutzing, underrotating jumps or spins, etc. that judging should JUDGE this; meaning good technique (proper) should be rewarded and bad technique penalized. I just have NO idea how much penalty....so like Jeff...I would love to know your opinion on how much deduction for a Flutz. Also, do you know of anycases where a flutz was so obviously a flip (not flat but inside edge), that the Zayak rule came into effect? Could this happen under the new rules?