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Thread: COP - Ladies - who should do what to capitalize

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    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    COP - Ladies - who should do what to capitalize

    Well, I guess I should start calling it correctly by it's official name - NJS (or has that changed again??). At any rate, I am putting off yard and house work today, so thanks in advance supporting me in my procrastination efforts.

    I have "cut my teeth" learning the new system more so in the ladies field than the others, but I hope others will start threads to help us learn more about the men's, pairs and dance divisions. This topic started up in earnest on the "Top 3 Ladies from Worlds" thread. I thought maybe there was enough interest shown where this topic should be honored with it's own thread.

    With 7 jumping passes allowed, jumps naturally (as they should IMO) carry the greatest weight in the TES department. So all of the top ladies need to have this area in order. But there are points to be gained in the other areas as well.

    Carolina - I hope her Worlds finish gives her the confidence and drive to solidify and gain consistency in her jumps throughout the next season. That's clearly an area where she has a technical advantage, and she needs to be solid to "work it." Mean time, I think she needs to get most if not all of her non-jump elements are at least level 3 (assuming level 2 from this year roughly equates to level 3 next year on the 4 level system). Barring an Oly meltdown, I think that's what it will take for Carolina and any of the ladies to make the podium at Oly's.

    Irina - I think she's got the jump thing in hand - at least she did this season (Euro's being the exception). I think she needs to REALLY read the new Irina Biellmann rules being implemented for next year. If I understand the new rules correctly (which may not be the case) I think the "clock starts ticking" for number of revolutions in the case of spins, and number of seconds holding the position in the case of spirals once the foot is above the head. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can clarify this: 1) Is my understanding of this new rule correct? and if so, 2) were her spin revolutions and spiral position holds this past season enough to get her the full point value, or was she short in revolutions / time held? Other than that, I think she's in good shape if she can put out there next year what she did this year on the technical front. (well, and stop travelling the spins just in case the judges start paying attention to that, as they should)

    Sasha - Gotta get the jumps under control. I don't think she can play for gold without a 3/3. At least she included a 3/3 seq. this year (not well done at Worlds, but it was in there as an attempt) so looks like she's focused on that need. In the non-jump areas, I think spins are her strongest suit. Since there are 4 of them in the LP, going for level 4 on most or all of them would give her a point gaining opportunity. Steps are interesting in that of the non-jump elements, it's the thing that is most highly rewarded in GOE (i.e. a +3 GOE is worth 3 points at level 3 this year / level 4 next year v. a +3 GOE being worth 1.5 points for spins and lower level footwork). Are Sasha's edges sound enough to get to level 4 in either the spiral (her best shot for that IMO) or the straight/circular/sperpentine steps (her worst shot IMO)? I think if I were Sasha I would concentrate on the spins.

    MK - Baring a complete meltdown, I think the podium will require a 3/3 - especially the top of the podium. So I hope she can bring those from practice ice to competition ice. With MK's edges, I thinkher best opportunity to rack up some big points in non-jump elements is in the step sequences - both spiral and the other. With the GOE advantage if she can get level 4's, that could make up some ground where Sasha in particular (IMO) has an advantage. And Irina too if not for the traveling. I'm sure MK will be working on maximizing all elements (as every lady should and I'm sure will be doing) I think the step area should take high priority.

    Shiz - OH how I want to see Shiz get it back next year!!! What she needs to do is general and obvious - get the jumps back, get the confidence back, and do your thing.

    Miki - She's GOT to have her jumps under her to have a podium hope. On the non-jump side of the house, I think her biggest opportunity for scoring improvement is in going for quality (rather than level) improvements that could positively impact GOE. And maybe try to get the single level 1 element from World's up one notch.

    Poykio - In the jump department I'm not sure where she's at with 3/3 potential. Maybe a 3/3 Sequence to get the ball rolling? She had 3 level 1 non-jump elements, so that's a point opportunity to up those a notch. I haven't seen enough of her on TV to have an opinion about whether she's a stronger spinner, spiraler, or step sequencer to prioritize that.

    Fumie - Is there a 3/3 in there somewhere?? I hope so because I love watching her skate and would love to see her as a strong podium contender next year. What she did at 4CC was gorgeous, but the technical ante I think would have to be "upped" in both jump and at least one non-jump element for her to contend, barring a splatfest.

    Well, that was WAY more than 2 cents worth of my opinon. I'm sure most people attempting to read this are asleep by now. I have a secret wish to challenge RGirl on length of posts. (RGirl, where are you lately??)

    DG

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    I agree with your discussion of what skaters need to do with spins and spirals. I'm not so sure about 3/3s. As I understand it, the only merit to doing a 3/3 under the CoP is to allow a skater to do 7 triples, without doing a triple axel. The same 7 triple program (w/o 3 axel) could be done by doing a 2 axel in combination with a triple jump. Since most of the ladies are doing 3/3s, would it be more beneficial to "join the crowd", or, would a skater stand out more by doing a double axel combination? (I'm beginning to think that I want Michelle to do the double axel in combination -- just to be different!)
    Last edited by attyfan; 06-05-2005 at 02:54 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Even better -- do both a 3-3 and a 2A-3something. At worlds Carolina did a 3-3-2, a 3-2, and a 2A-3S. She missed one intended triple (doing a double loop in error), but without that mistake she would have had 3 solo triples and an extra solo double Axel for good measure. If she upgrades her second element to a 3-3, she could get in 8 triples, plus two double Axels, all within the rules (I think).

    Mathman

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    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    MM, I think the only way to have 8 triples in a program is with one of them being a 3A. Is that right ... anyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan
    I agree with your discussion of what skaters need to do with spins and spirals. I'm not so sure about 3/3s. As I understand it, the only merit to doing a 3/3 under the CoP is to allow a skater to do 7 triples, without doing a triple axel. The same 7 triple program (w/o 3 axel) could be done by doing a 2 axel in combination with a triple jump. Since most of the ladies are doing 3/3s, would it be more beneficial to "join the crowd", or, would a skater stand out more by doing a double axel combination? (I'm beginning to think that I want Michelle to do the double axel in combination -- just to be different!)
    Fortunately or unfortunately (and I personally fall on the side of unfortunately, I think) the value of a 3/3 goes beyond it's technical value. I think it gets a bit of "prop" in the PCS and GOE departments. In the case of a splatfest, this all goes out the window I think. Selfishly, I want to see the ladies (and also men, pairs and dance teams) bring their "A" game to the Oly's next year. But a 2A/3 in lieu of a 3/3 is IMO a good alternative if a 3/3 just ain't there.

    Geez. I hope something positive happens through judge / tech training over the summer to help us all percieve the PCS scores next year as more "legitimate." Now you guys are making me really THINK!! Maybe I should just dig into my house work.

    My summary of the moment is this. The skaters DO have a greater degree of control under the NJS in the TES department IMO. So if I were training for the Olys (don't have a heart attack due to excessive laughter at that!) I would be digging into this past competitive year figuring out my best avenues for maxing points - including speculations about things that appear to "influence" the PCS side, that probably should rightly be left on the TES side of the fence.

    DG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Even better -- do both a 3-3 and a 2A-3something. At worlds Carolina did a 3-3-2, a 3-2, and a 2A-3S. She missed one intended triple (doing a double loop in error), but without that mistake she would have had 3 solo triples and an extra solo double Axel for good measure. If she upgrades her second element to a 3-3, she could get in 8 triples, plus two double Axels, all within the rules (I think).

    Mathman
    I don't know the answer to this. but i know people have given the break downs on possible jumps before, anyone remember where?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure it was GKelly who posted the definitive analysis of possibilities, quite a while back. But I can't seem to find it now.

    So the question is, is it possible to do eight triples, if you include a double Axel-triple something combo?

    More generally on topic, I think it is possible that a skater might over-study the CoP. Michelle said on several occasions that she was distracted by having to count every revolution and time every change of edge to make sure it was in compliance with the new rules. She might have been better off if she had just gone out there and skated.

    Nobody wants to see a splatfest at the Olympics. But on the other hand, it is unlikely that many of the competitors will skate perfectly. The point differential that you get by upgrading your layback spin from level 1 to level 2 is only four tenths of a point (1.2 versus 1.6). But if you double your triple Lutz, you lose 4.1 points (6.0 to 1.9) -- more than ten times as great a penalty.

    Mathman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I'm pretty sure it was GKelly who posted the definitive analysis of possibilities, quite a while back. But I can't seem to find it now.

    So the question is, is it possible to do eight triples, if you include a double Axel-triple something combo?

    More generally on topic, I think it is possible that a skater might over-study the CoP. Michelle said on several occasions that she was distracted by having to count every revolution and time every change of edge to make sure it was in compliance with the new rules. She might have been better off if she had just gone out there and skated.

    Nobody wants to see a splatfest at the Olympics. But on the other hand, it is unlikely that many of the competitors will skate perfectly. The point differential that you get by upgrading your layback spin from level 1 to level 2 is only four tenths of a point (1.2 versus 1.6). But if you double your triple Lutz, you lose 4.1 points (6.0 to 1.9) -- more than ten times as great a penalty.

    Mathman
    I too am interested in that 3 X 8 question. MM, I remember that post too from way back and couldn't find it either.

    The key to accumulating points in the spin category goes beyond just the levels. Flying Spins, Change foot spins, and spin combos get higher scores than the basic layback you mentioned, or the other basic upright, camels and sits. The jump points for the elite skaters will always be the most significant % of points earned (which is as I think it should be) but there are lots of points hiding there in the "other" category too.

    If MK had "set" her program from the beginning of the year, she shouldn't have had to be "counting" at Worlds. I think it was a strategic error to concentrate on 6.0 for Nationals and then change it up for Worlds. Maybe that's not what she intended, but Bolero kept changing with every comp (pretty major changes - not just minor tweaks) so maybe things ended up differently than planned.

    Johnny's interview (it was on TV during one of the comps) where he was asked his opinion of COP was very interesting. He says he doesn't think about it much at all. He leaves it to his coach and choreographers to construct the programs with COP in mind, and he just skates. I think that same COP strategy would work for MK. Whether she studies the heck out of COP, or leaves it to her coach / choreographer, I just hope she gets her programs "set" at the beginning of the season, and commits them to muscle memory throughout. I think that's the secret to "not counting" by the time the Nats and Olys roll around.

    DG

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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan
    I agree with your discussion of what skaters need to do with spins and spirals. I'm not so sure about 3/3s. As I understand it, the only merit to doing a 3/3 under the CoP is to allow a skater to do 7 triples, without doing a triple axel. The same 7 triple program (w/o 3 axel) could be done by doing a 2 axel in combination with a triple jump. Since most of the ladies are doing 3/3s, would it be more beneficial to "join the crowd", or, would a skater stand out more by doing a double axel combination? (I'm beginning to think that I want Michelle to do the double axel in combination -- just to be different!)
    Is there any change in limiting doubles? With more 3/3s you can save jump passes than throw in extra double axels. You can repeat 2 triples only, thus with 2a/3 combo you may have 7 triples. But with extra 3/3 you can throw in another 2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    Is there any change in limiting doubles? With more 3/3s you can save jump passes than throw in extra double axels. You can repeat 2 triples only, thus with 2a/3 combo you may have 7 triples. But with extra 3/3 you can throw in another 2a.
    I speed read through the recent rule changes, and didn't notice any changes to the jump rules - nothing new that would limit doubles that I noticed.

    DG

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    The eight-triple scenario for Ladies requires a triple Axel. If the skater were to perform two 3/3 combinations, then the repeated triples could be 3T and 3Lo only.

    For example:

    3A
    3Lu/3Lo*
    3F/3T*
    3Lu/2Lo*
    3F
    3S
    2A

    *Any one could have a double added on

    Sequences allow a skater to use more than 3T and 3Lo as the second (or third) jump.

    The big change to jumps came in pairs: a pair cannot use the same type of jump in both side by side singles and combos/sequences, but they can use the same type of jump in the combo. A 3T and a 2T are the same type of jump. A jump can be repeated in combo.

    Of the 19 couples who completed the LP in Moscow plus Shen/Zhao, only 11 can use the same attempted jumps from their 2004-5 programs in 2005-6:

    Totmianina/Marinin (3S and 3T/2T)
    Petrova/Tikhonov (3S and 2A+3T)
    Zhang/Zhang (2A+3T, 3S)
    Savchekno/Skolkowy (3T+3T, 2A)
    Wakamatsu/Fecteau (3T+2T, 2A)
    Inoue/Baldwin (3Lz, 2A+2A)
    Volosozhar/Morozov (3T+3T, 3S)
    Pla/Bonheur (3T+2T, 2S)
    Rennik/Saks (2F+2S, 2T)
    Spassova/Todorov (2S, 2F+2F)
    Bogusklavska/Brovenko (2A, 2Lo+2T)

    The pairs that will have to change their jumps from 2004-5 are:

    Shen/Zhao (3T, 2A+3T)
    Pang/Tong (3T+2A, 2A)
    Obertas/Slavnov (3T+3T, 3T)
    Zagorska/Siudek (3T+2T, 3T)
    Marcoux/Buntin (3T+2T, 3T)
    Orsher/Lucash (3T+2F, 3T)
    Aganina/Knyazev (2A+2F, 2F)
    Bestandigova/Bestandig (2A, 2A+2T)
    Shapiro/Akolzin (2A, 2A + ?)

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    Hi Hockeyfan!

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    The eight-triple scenario for Ladies requires a triple Axel. If the skater were to perform two 3/3 combinations, then the repeated triples could be 3T and 3Lo only.

    For example:

    3A
    3Lu/3Lo*
    3F/3T*
    3Lu/2Lo*
    3F
    3S
    2A

    *Any one could have a double added on

    Sequences allow a skater to use more than 3T and 3Lo as the second (or third) jump.

    The big change to jumps came in pairs: a pair cannot use the same type of jump in both side by side singles and combos/sequences, but they can use the same type of jump in the combo. A 3T and a 2T are the same type of jump. A jump can be repeated in combo.

    Of the 19 couples who completed the LP in Moscow plus Shen/Zhao, only 11 can use the same attempted jumps from their 2004-5 programs in 2005-6:

    Totmianina/Marinin (3S and 3T/2T)
    Petrova/Tikhonov (3S and 2A+3T)
    Zhang/Zhang (2A+3T, 3S)
    Savchekno/Skolkowy (3T+3T, 2A)
    Wakamatsu/Fecteau (3T+2T, 2A)
    Inoue/Baldwin (3Lz, 2A+2A)
    Volosozhar/Morozov (3T+3T, 3S)
    Pla/Bonheur (3T+2T, 2S)
    Rennik/Saks (2F+2S, 2T)
    Spassova/Todorov (2S, 2F+2F)
    Bogusklavska/Brovenko (2A, 2Lo+2T)

    The pairs that will have to change their jumps from 2004-5 are:

    Shen/Zhao (3T, 2A+3T)
    Pang/Tong (3T+2A, 2A)
    Obertas/Slavnov (3T+3T, 3T)
    Zagorska/Siudek (3T+2T, 3T)
    Marcoux/Buntin (3T+2T, 3T)
    Orsher/Lucash (3T+2F, 3T)
    Aganina/Knyazev (2A+2F, 2F)
    Bestandigova/Bestandig (2A, 2A+2T)
    Shapiro/Akolzin (2A, 2A + ?)
    In the ladies scenario you gave, couldn't a skater replace the 3A with a solo 3T or 3Loop? (If I'm counting right anyway). I thought a triple jump can be used twice so long as one is solo, and one is in combination. But maybe there's something about the Zayak rule that I don't understand. Thanks in advance for your help!

    And thanks for the analysis of the pairs jump changes. Some of the top teams will have to work to expand their jump content - I didn't catch that. Very informative - thanks as always!!

    DG

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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    The eight-triple scenario for Ladies requires a triple Axel. If the skater were to perform two 3/3 combinations, then the repeated triples could be 3T and 3Lo only.
    Is this a new rule? The repeated triple can only be 3T or 3Lo?

    If you do a 3sal/3toe or a 3Toe/3loop or 3Sal/3Loop or 3sal/3Toe, can you repeat 3Lutz and 3 Flip in combo? There are 3 combo allowed right?

    To sumarise jump rules:
    1) Only 7 jump passes allowed.
    2) Only 3 combos allowed, among them only one can be 3 jumps combo.
    3) At least one pass must include an Axel jump.

    Did I missing some thing? If not you can play all different combinations of jump passes. But without 3Axel, the most points you can gain in 7 jump passes with 7 triples (assume you have all other 5 triples) is to repeat 3Lutz and 3Flip.

    3Sal/3Loop
    3Lutz/3Toe/2Loop
    3Flip/2Toe
    3Flip
    3Lutz
    2Axel
    2Axel -- this pass can also reserve for an triple if any of above triple is missed.
    ?
    Last edited by mzheng; 06-06-2005 at 04:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    In the ladies scenario you gave, couldn't a skater replace the 3A with a solo 3T or 3Loop? (If I'm counting right anyway). I thought a triple jump can be used twice so long as one is solo, and one is in combination.
    The first part of the rule is that only two triples can be repeated twice. In my example, replacing the 3A with the 3T or 3Lo would mean three triples repeated twice (Lz's, F's, and T's or Lo's). It took me forever to learn this.

    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    Is this a new rule? The repeated triple can only be 3T or 3Lo?
    For a combination, the second jump must take off of the landing foot of the first jump. All six jumps land on the same foot, but only the Loop and Toe Loop also take off on that foot. The Axel, Lutz, Salchow and Flip take off on the opposite foot, and the Axel takes off from the opposite direction, and any turn except a three-turn out of the first jump -- considered an error -- would turn the combination into a sequence.

    Counterclockwise (majority):
    Axel: LFO to RBO
    Lutz: LBO to RBO
    Flip and Salchow: LBI to RBO
    Loop and Toe Loop: RBO to RBO

    Clockwise:
    Axel: RFO to LBO
    Lutz: RBO to LBO
    Flip and Salchow: RBI to LBO
    Loop and Toe Loop: LBO to LBO

    With combinations, it is possible to do the Flip and Salchow as the second jump with a half loop in between, because the half loop lands on the LBI edge for counterclockwise jumpers and the RBI edge for clockwise jumpers. For the Lutz to be the second jump would require a change of edge, and the axel would require a change of edge and direction.

  15. #15
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    Argh -- I misstated the new pairs rule. It applies to 2A, triples, and quads, not to the "lesser" doubles. So Aganina/Knyazev can continue to do 2T and 2T+2A in 2005-6.

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