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Thread: changes to jump rules for pairs

  1. #1
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    changes to jump rules for pairs

    In another thread, hockeyfan wrote:

    "The big change to jumps came in pairs: a pair cannot use the same type of jump in both side by side singles and combos/sequences, but they can use the same type of jump in the combo. A 3T and a 2T are the same type of jump. A jump can be repeated in combo.

    Of the 19 couples who completed the LP in Moscow plus Shen/Zhao, only 11 can use the same attempted jumps from their 2004-5 programs in 2005-6:

    Totmianina/Marinin (3S and 3T/2T)
    Petrova/Tikhonov (3S and 2A+3T)
    Zhang/Zhang (2A+3T, 3S)
    Savchekno/Skolkowy (3T+3T, 2A)
    Wakamatsu/Fecteau (3T+2T, 2A)
    Inoue/Baldwin (3Lz, 2A+2A)
    Volosozhar/Morozov (3T+3T, 3S)
    Pla/Bonheur (3T+2T, 2S)
    Rennik/Saks (2F+2S, 2T)
    Spassova/Todorov (2S, 2F+2F)
    Bogusklavska/Brovenko (2A, 2Lo+2T)

    The pairs that will have to change their jumps from 2004-5 are:

    Shen/Zhao (3T, 2A+3T)
    Pang/Tong (3T+2A, 2A)
    Obertas/Slavnov (3T+3T, 3T)
    Zagorska/Siudek (3T+2T, 3T)
    Marcoux/Buntin (3T+2T, 3T)
    Orsher/Lucash (3T+2F, 3T)
    Aganina/Knyazev (2A+2F, 2F)
    Bestandigova/Bestandig (2A, 2A+2T)
    Shapiro/Akolzin (2A, 2A + ?)"

    Anyone feel like debating the significance of this change for the top 3-6 pairs, and what those without two different triples might have to do (other than learning a new triple) in other elements to stay competitive with those with two different triples?

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    Custom User Title CDMM1991's Avatar
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    I don't think it's not significant because, not the fact that those pairs wouldn't be able to do a different triple, it's more that just for the longest time they would have been doing those toe combos, at least a few years for some of those pairs, and it would probably not be an insignificant change to be suddenly out of that routine. I guess if they start training with the new triple early enough, they will be fine.

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    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Personally, I was never impressed by the pairs triple jumps in the first place. I would rather see more of the traditional pair elements, where a pair has to skate as one, rather than essentially singles elements just done SBS.

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    As far as I see this rule change in favor of Rusian pairs, in a close competetion all you need is a little help here and there even 0.01 points counted, which does not suppris me at all with so many Rusian specialist on board....The OGM pairs will continue the traditional Rusian reign. Chinese as a relative 'young' federation does not have as much musle or influence that Rusian has.

  5. #5
    Go NJ Devils
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    The rule change favors the top two Russian pairs -- the third was sacrificed -- over the top Chinese pair. (Or top Chinese pairs, if you think Pang/Tong had an off year and are still China's #2.)

    Comparing S/Z to T/M in 2004-5:

    S/Z Base Tech (GPF): 57.4 vs. T/M Base Tech (Euro): 57.4 vs. T/M Base Tech (Worlds): 59.00

    S/Z Tot Tech (GPF): 67.94 vs. T/M Tot Tech (Euro): 61.22 vs. T/M Tot Tech (Worlds): 62.24

    S/Z PCS (GPF): 68.08 vs. T/M PCS (Euro): 65.36 vs. T/M PCS (Worlds): 66.16.

    Worst case scenario/clean program: S/Z downgrade to 2A+2T seq with 3T's. That means they have to make up 2.7 points. If S/Z and T/M skate cleanly or have equal bobbles, S/Z have a greater upside, because of their throws and twists. T/M have lovely form, but S/Z received GOE of +1.52 on both throws (GPF), and T/M didn't come close. While T/M are capable of doing throws closer in quality to S/Z, their twist is one of their weaker elements, and S/Z have an excellent, well-rewarded twist. Even with T/M feeling more secure next year, S/Z could make up most of those points just on throw and twist GOEs.

    For other elements, T/M are closer to being maxxed out with their levels, while S/Z are trying to upgrade theirs. Even if their spins aren't as clean as T/M's, a very bad spin will lose a max of 1 point, while a bobble on the 2T in 3T/2T will lose the same, and a bigger flaw will lose 2 or 3 points.

    I don't think S/Z need to do a quad throw to make up the points. While there is a great upside, including history, the downside of a miss is greater. Unless they attempt them in all events leading up to Torino, they won't have had the experience of landing one at the beginning of their program, and working with that adrenaline for the duration of it.

    My feeling is that the psychological effect of this decision will have the greatest impact. It's easy to interpret this as favoritism -- and if you believe any of Bianchetti's book, Cinquanta needs Russian support not only for his proposals, but to stay in office. It puts an onus on Shen/Zhao to go out of their comfort zone and change the elements they've mastered and take for granted in a year they would have spent making small upgrades and polishing their programs, and, for a double whammy, during a time when Zhao is injured. It also puts more of the technical scores in the hands of the judges, on whom they depend for GOE and PCS, and out of their own hands, i.e., reading the rule book and adding up the base technical.

    If anyone can pull this off, I expect it to be S/Z.

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    Interesting hockeyfan and thanks for the detail in this post.

    I won't hide what a huge S/Z fan I am, so your analysis actually puts me more at ease. I do hope that they don't try the quad, rather work on spin unison, and just nailing/selling what they already have. Of course, I just hope Zhao is heeled too.

    Gushing for my favs aside, this certainly will make for interesting competitions next year if both (russian/chinese) skate at their bests....and oh the dissection of the scores...that will be a blast.

    Having said that, I'll also be interested to watch more closely those teams with two different triples to see how they capitalize on that. Particularly the Zhangs versus Pang and Tong, and P/T (russians)....this could get so interesting. And W/F, as I understand it, can't skate olympics, I still can't wait to see what they do in the Fall.

    Ptichka: I hear you....I'm not sure what my opinion about the single's elements in pairs is (other than when the element is nailed with perfect unison it does wow me)...but since they count (for points) I'm definitely curious about how this will shape things next year.

  7. #7
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    The rule change favors the top two Russian pairs -- the third was sacrificed -- over the top Chinese pair. (Or top Chinese pairs, if you think Pang/Tong had an off year and are still China's #2.)

    Comparing S/Z to T/M in 2004-5:

    S/Z Base Tech (GPF): 57.4 vs. T/M Base Tech (Euro): 57.4 vs. T/M Base Tech (Worlds): 59.00

    S/Z Tot Tech (GPF): 67.94 vs. T/M Tot Tech (Euro): 61.22 vs. T/M Tot Tech (Worlds): 62.24

    S/Z PCS (GPF): 68.08 vs. T/M PCS (Euro): 65.36 vs. T/M PCS (Worlds): 66.16.

    Worst case scenario/clean program: S/Z downgrade to 2A+2T seq with 3T's. That means they have to make up 2.7 points. If S/Z and T/M skate cleanly or have equal bobbles, S/Z have a greater upside, because of their throws and twists. T/M have lovely form, but S/Z received GOE of +1.52 on both throws (GPF), and T/M didn't come close. While T/M are capable of doing throws closer in quality to S/Z, their twist is one of their weaker elements, and S/Z have an excellent, well-rewarded twist. Even with T/M feeling more secure next year, S/Z could make up most of those points just on throw and twist GOEs.

    For other elements, T/M are closer to being maxxed out with their levels, while S/Z are trying to upgrade theirs. Even if their spins aren't as clean as T/M's, a very bad spin will lose a max of 1 point, while a bobble on the 2T in 3T/2T will lose the same, and a bigger flaw will lose 2 or 3 points.

    I don't think S/Z need to do a quad throw to make up the points. While there is a great upside, including history, the downside of a miss is greater. Unless they attempt them in all events leading up to Torino, they won't have had the experience of landing one at the beginning of their program, and working with that adrenaline for the duration of it.

    My feeling is that the psychological effect of this decision will have the greatest impact. It's easy to interpret this as favoritism -- and if you believe any of Bianchetti's book, Cinquanta needs Russian support not only for his proposals, but to stay in office. It puts an onus on Shen/Zhao to go out of their comfort zone and change the elements they've mastered and take for granted in a year they would have spent making small upgrades and polishing their programs, and, for a double whammy, during a time when Zhao is injured. It also puts more of the technical scores in the hands of the judges, on whom they depend for GOE and PCS, and out of their own hands, i.e., reading the rule book and adding up the base technical.

    If anyone can pull this off, I expect it to be S/Z.
    great analysis hockeyfan! I agree with you that this change on the rules will force S/Z to either master another triple, or downgrade their jump sequence. However, I think that if someone can do it is S/Z.

    This past season the score between S/Z and T/M where pretty close, only in one event T/M got a bigger Tech Score, but S/Z outscored them with the PCS. It would have been interesting to have both teams in one same competition. S/Z weakness are the SBS Spins, and maybe their spiral sequence, but actually they where changing it (at the GPF they had a different one than what they had done during the season). T/M have the great lines and extension, but (and here I could be biased because I love S/Z) whenever I see both teams, I feel more connection and warmth that extend to the audience from S/Z (that's just my personal opinion of course).

    As for the quad throw, as great as it would be to see it done, I agree that they would have to do it in every competition to have it under their legs, rather than to wait for the Main Event to do it. I also don't feel they need it to win.

    They need to review their plan game, and I bet Bin Yao is doing just that.

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    I don't think they will try quad throw. They can't afford risk of injury Shen to practice the quad throw with Zhao not fully recovery from the injury. Read in china-ice board before the rule change, they had no intention to add quad. But more or less they had expected the rule changing.

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    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    I don't think they will try quad throw. They can't afford risk of injury Shen to practice the quad throw with Zhao not fully recovery from the injury. Read in china-ice board before the rule change, they had no intention to add quad. But more or less they had expected the rule changing.
    Thanks for the info mzheng! I think the whole quad sal issue is because some weeks ago it was said that they might try it only if it was very consistent, but I honestly think they don't need it. Have you read any report whereas if they'll include a new SBS triple jump aside from the toe? what are they planning to do with the rule change? do keep us posted

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    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Thanks for that analysis hockeyfan.
    I hope S&Z can make up those points, but I agree the quad throw is not the best way to do it.

    Does it bother anyone else that changes like this are made at the start of an Olympic season? Totally unfair IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nymkfan51
    Does it bother anyone else that changes like this are made at the start of an Olympic season? Totally unfair IMO.
    Yes. There are so many other things the ISU could have tweaked with. This kind of major change in gymnastics is made after the Olympic cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    Yes. There are so many other things the ISU could have tweaked with. This kind of major change in gymnastics is made after the Olympic cycle.
    So...how does this kind of major change get passed? Wouldn't the ISU worry about how this might be perceived as favortism? Sorry, if I sound naive...I'm NOT niave politically, just have never followed/looked into ISU politics and know nothing about their rules/procedures/culture-corruption, etc.

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    I think the singles rules change (elevating Biellmann to level 4) and the pairs change are both geared to the Russians' benefit. Irina now has another arrow in her quiver, and the Russian pairs get a boost, too.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    It's definitely a Tech competitiion; not at all like B&S v. S&P. If there is no hanky panky this time out, I think the team with the most exciting routine ending a big crescendo of music will win. The music is important here. Anyone know what music each team is using?

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru
    Thanks for the info mzheng! I think the whole quad sal issue is because some weeks ago it was said that they might try it only if it was very consistent, but I honestly think they don't need it. Have you read any report whereas if they'll include a new SBS triple jump aside from the toe? what are they planning to do with the rule change? do keep us posted
    Hikaru, you are wellcome. I don't go there very often now. The site heavely loaded those animation imagines tool Loooooooooooooong time to upload the page. I have no patient. lol.

    But judged by what I read before. It is impossible for them to add a new SBS tripls. Zhao might be able to manage a sal. But triple toe has been the only triple Shen ever learned after she pairs up with Zhao. It was reported that after Shen pairs up with Zhao, she worked extremly hard to keepup with Zhao's skills. She took double sessions, the sessions with BinYao as the coach to learn pair skills with Zhao together, the sessions taught by Zhao to learn single skill such as jumps, etc. It was Zhao who taught Shen's triple toe. Actually you can tell by looking at their sbs jumps, they almost have the same entry, posture, etc. in sbs triple toe.

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