Mikey seems to be in touch with what is being said on the message boards (at least he addressed a lot of issues in the Goldenskate interview). He should tell his wife that he's going to get another choreographer so he can grow. If she loved him, she would want what's best for his skating b/c her choreo has been severely criticized for the past few years (by fans and by judges from the way his standing has plummetted). Mikey is extremely talented is it's unfortunate the way his skating has been going.
Michael Weiss, the Grand Prix and the Olympics
- Thread starter Mathman
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- Joined
- Jan 21, 2005
Apart from the choreography issues, Weiss should also stop including "gimmicky" moves (ie "Mike Pike", freedom blades move etc) in his programs and concentrate on constructing a program that will showcase his strengths. Weiss has always struck me as a dynamic and emotive skater, so he should pick music that is both powerful and passionate (Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto No. 1, Op. 1, first movement comes to mind) as this kind of music will allow him to catch the attention of both audiences and judges from the first note. The Henry V SP from last season was only marginally better than his LP.
I believe Weiss successfully landed a quad lutz at Trophee Lalique 2002, though sadly it has let him down ever since then. I would suggest that he abandon the quad lutz in favor of landing one (or possibly two) quad toes. He landed one beautifully during SP warmups at the Portland Nationals, shame it eluded him during the actual competition.
I believe Weiss successfully landed a quad lutz at Trophee Lalique 2002, though sadly it has let him down ever since then. I would suggest that he abandon the quad lutz in favor of landing one (or possibly two) quad toes. He landed one beautifully during SP warmups at the Portland Nationals, shame it eluded him during the actual competition.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I believe Michael landed a full rotation quad sometimes but the landing was two footed. How many points does he get for that attempt under the CoP and how how does it affect the GOE?
I've also noticed that he has underrotated the quad and still two footed it. I presume he gets zilch for that.
Joe
I've also noticed that he has underrotated the quad and still two footed it. I presume he gets zilch for that.
Joe
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2005
Joesitz said:
At Portland Nationals, Michael's quad toe in the LP was definitely double-footed. Not sure how many points it would be worth under CoP though, perhaps someone who could care to enlighten us all?
The triple axel is definitely a more consistent jump for Michael, as he landed all three planned axels (SP and LP) at Nationals. It's such a shame that he is having consistency problems in his jumps at this stage in his eligible career; when he gets it right, his jumps have good height, tight rotations and beautiful running edges coming out of them.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Accoding to the ISU scale of values
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152085-169301-64123-0-file,00.pdf
a quad Lutz has a base value of 11.0, and a quad toe has a base value of 9.0.
A two-footed landing is supposed to be an automatic -2 GOE, according to the ISU protocols
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152083-169299-64126-0-file,00.pdf
So in principle a two-footed quad Lutz (if everything else is OK) would count exactly the same as a clean quad toe, at least on the technical side.
I don't think that Michaels quad Lutz in the 2002 Trophee Lalique was ratified, under the old judging system. If it was two-footed it would not have officially gone into the record books. I don't think anyone has done an official quad Lutz yet. I think Plushenko practiced it, but then had to scale back his quads altogether because of injuries.
Mathman
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152085-169301-64123-0-file,00.pdf
a quad Lutz has a base value of 11.0, and a quad toe has a base value of 9.0.
A two-footed landing is supposed to be an automatic -2 GOE, according to the ISU protocols
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152083-169299-64126-0-file,00.pdf
So in principle a two-footed quad Lutz (if everything else is OK) would count exactly the same as a clean quad toe, at least on the technical side.
I don't think that Michaels quad Lutz in the 2002 Trophee Lalique was ratified, under the old judging system. If it was two-footed it would not have officially gone into the record books. I don't think anyone has done an official quad Lutz yet. I think Plushenko practiced it, but then had to scale back his quads altogether because of injuries.
Mathman
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Thanks for looking that up MM...
Also there was a previous question about under rotation. If the jump is more than 1/4 turn under rotated, it is supposed to be downgraded. (i.e. a triple rather than quad) In the case of a under rotated quad lutz called a triple, the base value plummets from 11 to 6.
I'm wondering now if the -2 GOE for 2 footed landings has been properly applied this past season, or if it's been applied like the automatic -3 GOE for obvious, severe edge changes on lutzes and flips. (meaning, not applied!)
If anyone can recall specific events where a particular skater clearly 2-footed a particular jump, I will be happy to dig through the score sheets and report back whether the -2 GOE is being applied with any consistency to 2-foots.
DG
Also there was a previous question about under rotation. If the jump is more than 1/4 turn under rotated, it is supposed to be downgraded. (i.e. a triple rather than quad) In the case of a under rotated quad lutz called a triple, the base value plummets from 11 to 6.
I'm wondering now if the -2 GOE for 2 footed landings has been properly applied this past season, or if it's been applied like the automatic -3 GOE for obvious, severe edge changes on lutzes and flips. (meaning, not applied!)
If anyone can recall specific events where a particular skater clearly 2-footed a particular jump, I will be happy to dig through the score sheets and report back whether the -2 GOE is being applied with any consistency to 2-foots.
DG
Doggygirl said:
Also keep in mind the following:
"First a judge evaluates the quality of an element (e.g. +1), then deducts for errors (e.g. -3) to obtain the final grade (e.g. +1-3= -2)"
So it's possible that a -3 deduction was taken for a severe change of edge even if the actual GOE was -2, or -2 take if the actual GOE was -1. (Now that Bobek and S. Hughes are out of the picture, I think -2 is the most we'd see for this among the current elite skaters.)
"land on two feet" is listed under the -2 GOE criteria, but "touch down with
one foot or one hand" is listed under -1. Commentators and fans often use the phrase "two-footed" to refer to the touchdown error as well as the (less common at the elite level) weight-on-both-feet landing.
So it's possible that an otherwise good jump in which the free toe just happens to touch the ice would actually deserve a 0 GOE.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
gkelly said:
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2005
Joesitz said:
Yes, the list of Russian mens skaters with beautiful extension and bodyline would include Viktor Petrenko, Alexei Urmanov, Ilia Kulik, Artur Dmitriev and Anton Sikharulidze, with the late Sergei Grinkov (God bless his soul) right at the top of the list. Michael doesn't have the height (he's only 5'9") or the ideal torso to leg ratio, so he has to work harder in terms of presentation to "finish" his moves in order to attain that kind of extension and line on the ice.
I rewatched both his programs from last season, and what struck me was how he came across as tentative and lacking in conviction in terms of "selling" them to the judges and audience. Also, Michael appeared to lack the speed and "fire", especially in his freeskate, which is so uncharacteristic of him (one need only watch his 2003 US Nationals LP, where he was buoyant and expressive, despite falling on his quad Lutz).
Wore him downq
Maybe his kids wore him down... speaking for myself, I can say I surely wore MY parents down.
Any other eligible skaters with kids? Alexander Abt, Tatiana Navka come to mind. They have one child, right?
What about top athletes in other sports? Think it affects their "fire"?
Linny
Maybe his kids wore him down... speaking for myself, I can say I surely wore MY parents down.
Any other eligible skaters with kids? Alexander Abt, Tatiana Navka come to mind. They have one child, right?
What about top athletes in other sports? Think it affects their "fire"?
Linny
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for explaining that, GKelly. I was wondering why a "brush" would be more severely penalized than putting a hand down. But actually landing boom on both feet would, as Joe says, upset the flow of the program.gkelly said:
As far as I can tell, Weiss essentially always two-foots his quad attempts. In fact, his technique is so consistent that it almost looks like he is doing it on purpose. If he could perfect a true two-footed quad Lutz, with full rotations but with a two-foot or even hand down landing, he would still garner a pile of points for the effort.
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Yup, Michael has often just boom two footed quads but there were a few occasions that it was a 'touch'. I remember Dickie commenting on one in a competition where Michael just did that and he gave the slomo look because the rotations were there and it looked clean but he 'touched with one foot'. Of course, the fans shouted two footed landings.
It's time for him to get some credit for the air rotations!
I was thinking of good line and extension in Men's Division over the years and I agree with Michaelfsfan's list of Russians. Out of the West, young man, I could add John Curry, Kurt Browning, Johnny Weir, Randy Garner and Sands from Pairs - first name escapes me, and I would throw in Todd Eldridge. All skaters take dance lessons where stretch is part of the warm-up exercise. Turning out the knees and pointing toes is deriguer(sp). Long legged guys have an advantage for viewing but short legged guys also have the requisite knees turned out and toes pointed - or should have. It was a MUST in school figures.
Joe
It's time for him to get some credit for the air rotations!
I was thinking of good line and extension in Men's Division over the years and I agree with Michaelfsfan's list of Russians. Out of the West, young man, I could add John Curry, Kurt Browning, Johnny Weir, Randy Garner and Sands from Pairs - first name escapes me, and I would throw in Todd Eldridge. All skaters take dance lessons where stretch is part of the warm-up exercise. Turning out the knees and pointing toes is deriguer(sp). Long legged guys have an advantage for viewing but short legged guys also have the requisite knees turned out and toes pointed - or should have. It was a MUST in school figures.
Joe
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- Joined
- Jun 24, 2003
That would be the wonderful Todd Sand. I've always loved him and Jenni Meno. I met them in Portland and they are both just the nicest people. :yes:
Anyway, Mike's quad never bothered me as much as his triple axels do because I've seen him totally blow those axels a lot more than I've seen him blow quads. With the quad, he would normally at least two foot it but stay upright. His axels have always made me nervous because they just never seem to have consistancy and he's all over the place in landing, falling, splatting, etc. That could just be my opinion but I definitely think he should work on his axel more than the quad as far as jumps go. And I still totally agree that he needs a new choreographer. :scratch:
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2003
I think Matt is in his 7th year of college(?), so I think that's' why he hasn't been in that many comps lately. With this olympic year coming up, I really hope he gets all the time he needs to focus on his skating. I would love to see his full potential be realized this coming season. 
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I guess that means he's working on a Phd? That doesn't have to be rushed, so he will have time. Like to see his full potential.CzarinaAnya said:I think Matt is in his 7th year of college(?), so I think that's' why he hasn't been in that many comps lately. With this olympic year coming up, I really hope he gets all the time he needs to focus on his skating. I would love to see his full potential be realized this coming season.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
According to Blades on Ice, Matt graduated from college (Bradley) in 2002 with a degree in political science. He has been accepted into Cornell law school.
"He is planning to delay his entry so he can continue (skating) through the Olympic season. 'If things don't work out with my skating, my career is all in place,' says Savoie..."
Mathman
"He is planning to delay his entry so he can continue (skating) through the Olympic season. 'If things don't work out with my skating, my career is all in place,' says Savoie..."
Mathman
