Why is it so hard for them to see themselves?

gezando said:

Exactly my point, coaches can whine about the poor officiating. Players may whine about fellow teammates. I am not aware of LA Lakers 04 whine about they WUZ robbed by the referees.

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I read many articles in the LA Times about the Lakers falling victim to blaming the refs and arguing calls when the Pistons were killing them in the Finals. It was a contributor to their self-destruction.

And if anyone knows me, I can't STAND the Lakers. So I enjoyed it very much

Within a week we will have a NBA champ, I don't expect the losing team to whine about "poor me I wuz robbed"

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Well, exactly. That's being a sore loser. And that's strongly looked down upon in team sports.

Red Dog said:

I read many articles in the LA Times about the Lakers falling victim to blaming the refs and arguing calls when the Pistons were killing them in the Finals.

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Did any LA players whine or just coaches and staff??

gezando said:

Did any LA players whine or just coaches and staff??

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The articles weren't really specific; they just said the team as a whole had that attitude. But throw in Kobe and Shaq's situation, Phil Jackson's situation with Kobe, etc. this team was a REAL mess.

I also think Surya was influenced to much by her mother.

Eeyora said:

I also think Surya was influenced to much by her mother.

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Yeah, but did her mother tell her to go out there and rip the medal off her neck at the 94 Worlds? Well, maybe so. That woman was crazy enough for anything. What always cracked me up about her was, she'd criticize the judging, yet the judges she criticized sure gave her a lot of medals for A WOMAN WHO BASICALLY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO SKATE.

Anytime you get really dedicated or committed to achieving something, your sense of perspective can get skewed. It has to be that way, because you are giving up so much to focus on this one goal. Your whole family is giving up so much for it. You just develop tunnel vision.

After a heavy disappointment, it's hard to just put everything in it's proper place and see the big picture all at once. Rational thinking and horrible pain don't naturally go together. People need a little time and space to deal with the disappointment. It takes a great deal of maturity to handle that kind of heartbreak well, especially when you have all these cameras pointed at you.

It's amazing that so many of these young people handle it so well. I'll never forget how much class Michelle showed, but that isn't given to everyone. Some young people have a harder time learning to control those emotions.

If we can't get the public to agree on who gave a good performance or whose skating technique is good, why shouldn't we expect some skaters who didn't have any falls or other significant mistakes to make their disagreements known in the K&C? GrGranny's question was about skaters who make faces or give thumbs down in the K&C, not skaters who complain about losses years after an event, which I agree is whining in any sport.

BTW, I'm not saying Irina didn't do the following, I'm just not familiar with the event Irina complained about "in interviews two years after it happened." I know she complained about the Olympics into the following season, but there was speculation that the Russian Federation strongly encouraged her to complain hoping to get an investigation into the ladies event because the Russians wanted to sweep the Olympics in FS. I just remember reading a blip about it on one of those "Raw Onion" or other "dig up the dirt" sites, but sorry I can't give a URL.

It just seems odd since Irina was never a complainer about her scores or results throughout her career, as far as I know, until that incident. Not that it couldn't happen. The Olympics, especially the '02 Olympics, seemed to bring out the worst in everybody except B&S and S&P, both teams of which were the only ones truly victimized by a scandal. OTOH, when skaters are in their teens, most are good little doo-bees in the K&C. Until the mid- to late-'90s, prior to which most skaters participated in one Olympics and then turned pro for financial reasons, we tended to see young skaters who were at most in their early '20s. Now we see skaters grow from their early teens to their mid- to late-20s as competitors. Those good little doo-bees at 16 tend to develop strong personalities by 25, especially if they've been among the the three or four best in the world for almost ten years. The older they get, the more likely they're going to let their feelings known if they're particularly PO'd about something.

About the "American Idol" analogy, I saw a report on "Dateline" during which an expert in hearing and the brain was interviewed. He said the results have studies have shown that some people truly cannot hear the difference between themselves, even on tape, and a great singer. The researcher compared it to body dysmorphic disorder, which is where a normal looking person looks in the mirror and sees themselves as hideously deformed. I suppose those skaters who are TRULY bad, and I don't mean differences in opinion--like between Irina and Michelle when they both skate well and clean--but for examply that one poor Russian girl who did the first 3Axel since Tonya Harding but otherwise was so terribly uncoordinated it hurt to watch, at least it did me. Here she could do the elusive 3Axel but her scores were like those for a junior level skater who wasn't very good. With all the excitement about her 3Axel, and that other girl's too, who was none too good either, they both must have wondered why they got such low scores.

I know I've taught people in dance classes--fortunately only a few over many years--who could burn holes in you for trying to give give them the most basic constructive criticism, such as "point your toes." At first you wondered if that's what you actually said, but after a while you realized that some people either just can't take criticism no matter how gentle or they're convinced the next step after this beginning dance class is Broadway.

It also goes the other way. Some dance teachers, choreographers, or critics hate you before you even move a muscle. There's just something about you as a person they can't stand. Others can't stand the way you move. OTOH, others are ga-ga over you. Especially in a modern company, where like figure skating a number of styles exist, people can come up with many reasons for hating the way you dance. Just recently I was looking up something about figure skating and it was attached to an article from about February (after Euros) in which the author said that Tatiana Malinina was seen as unseating Michelle Kwan at that year's Worlds. I think this was for either 1999 or 2000.

And so it goes.

Rgirl

NorthernLite said:

S & P? Are you talking about SLC? Erm, I think what quite a few of us know is that THEY were the best that night. So of course they were upset.

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Many times skaters believe that they were the best but the judges disagree. That happens in many competitions, and not just in FS. Most sportsmen/sportswomen accept the judges' decision graciously, regardless of their personal opinion of themselves. S&P were not gracious that night, but I do believe the NBC crew encouraged them to behave in that manner.

Rgirl said:

If we can't get the public to agree on who gave a good performance or whose skating technique is good, why shouldn't we expect some skaters who didn't have any falls or other significant mistakes to make their disagreements known in the K&C? GrGranny's question was about skaters who make faces or give thumbs down in the K&C, not skaters who complain about losses years after an event, which I agree is whining in any sport.

BTW, I'm not saying Irina didn't do the following, I'm just not familiar with the event Irina complained about "in interviews two years after it happened." I know she complained about the Olympics into the following season, but there was speculation that the Russian Federation strongly encouraged her to complain hoping to get an investigation into the ladies event because the Russians wanted to sweep the Olympics in FS. I just remember reading a blip about it on one of those "Raw Onion" or other "dig up the dirt" sites, but sorry I can't give a URL.

Rgirl

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A couple of points.

As far as facial expressions or jestures in the K&C, do any of us REALLY know what a skater is thinking when they make a jesture? I think we *assume* we know what they are thinking, and an individual interpretation might be related to whether an individual likes that skater or not, or agrees with the judging or not. How do we know a gesture that we interpret as *frustration* (as an example) is directed at the judges v. directed at self disappointment? Maybe I'm the only one who's not a mind reader.

As far as skaters comments go, most of this comes from the press, right? I think we need to take cultural differences into account. (to RGirl's point above) I think the press and public in the US expect especially the ladies skaters to behave like little ice princesses regardless of what they *really* think.

Just from feedback in other threads over time from our Russian GS friends, I get the impression that the Russian press / public expects something a little bit different than *ice princess* from their athletes. So...I think it's naive to take press interviews at 100% face value. Remember the movie "Liar, Liar" with Jim Carrey? I bet if that Truth Magic were applied to skaters or any other athletes during their interviews, FEW if ANY interviews who come out the same.

While I admire good sportsmanship the way I define it (and I'm sure everyone's view on "good sportsmanship" varies too), I think it's unrealistic to expect top level athletes in any sport will be PERFECT sportsmen/women every time.

Just my 2 cents.

DG

Without going back and rereading the posts, I guess I shouldn't have mentioned S/P as they hadn't made any mistakes. I think there, that the other pair had harder moves, but I do understand why they thought they should win. But, you know that some of them should realize their own skating might be not as good with edges or jumps, etc. Like Surya had no good choreography, etc. Why couldn't she see that? I assume they all have taped it and watched themselves some to know what they need to improve on. I guess that I have always thought everything I do is worse than anyone else so that makes it hard for me to under-
stand. Never thought I would start a post that anyone would post that much on.
Oops, never end a sentence a preposition with.
I sure appreciate all the thoughts and sure am glad Rgirl is back.

IMHO, there is a big difference between a skater's reaction to the marks in the K & C as opposed to later, verbal complaints about the marks. In the K & C, the reaction is immediate; the skater has not had a chance to review his or her own performance, and may not realize, for example, that a mark was low because a deduction was taken (Kwan's SP at Worlds, '04). OTOH, much of the "whining" takes place when there has been some time for the skater to see his or her own performance, and, the performances of the others.

attyfan said:

IMHO, there is a big difference between a skater's reaction to the marks in the K & C as opposed to later, verbal complaints about the marks. In the K & C, the reaction is immediate; the skater has not had a chance to review his or her own performance, and may not realize, for example, that a mark was low because a deduction was taken (Kwan's SP at Worlds, '04). OTOH, much of the "whining" takes place when there has been some time for the skater to see his or her own performance, and, the performances of the others.

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Nicely put attyfan, that makes a lot of sense to me.

It's just human nature. If you go to a basketball game, no matter how many times they show the slow motion instant replay, the fans of one team will swear up and down that it's a blocking foul, and the fans of the other will be just as adamant that it's a charge.

Here is a good example. Rewatch your tape of the Salt Lake City pairs free skate. Never mind Anton's wobble on the double Axel, what about Elena's landings on both of the throw jumps? If you are a B&S fan (or if you are Elena Berezhnaya), the landings look fine. If you are an S&P fan, both of the landings look insecure. Watch it 100 times and neither side will be swayed from their opinion, even thought they are looking at the exact same tape.

Mathman

Mathman said:

It's just human nature. If you go to a basketball game, no matter how many times they show the slow motion instant replay, the fans of one team will swear up and down that it's a blocking foul, and the fans of the other will be just as adamant that it's a charge.

Here is a good example. Rewatch your tape of the Salt Lake City pairs free skate. Never mind Anton's wobble on the double Axel, what about Elena's landings on both of the throw jumps? If you are a B&S fan (or if you are Elena Berezhnaya), the landings look fine. If you are an S&P fan, both of the landings look insecure. Watch it 100 times and neither side will be swayed from their opinion, even thought they are looking at the exact same tape.

Mathman

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Addition to what Mathman said I think you have to look at the psyche of being not just a world-class athlete but also one who is at the top of their sport. They have to have the arrogances to believe that they are the best, some skaters hide this better than others but they all have to have it or they won’t have the drive to get to the top or have the nerves to carry them through the performance.

As Mathman said I think as a fan you tend to pick on the skaters that you don’t tend to like. For instance I am not a MK fan and find her interviews plastic while those that are her fans kind her to be very gracious. Truthfully it is probably some where in between

janetb said:

Addition to what Mathman said I think you have to look at the psyche of being not just a world-class athlete but also one who is at the top of their sport. They have to have the arrogances to believe that they are the best, some skaters hide this better than others but they all have to have it or they won’t have the drive to get to the top or have the nerves to carry them through the performance.

As Mathman said I think as a fan you tend to pick on the skaters that you don’t tend to like. For instance I am not a MK fan and find her interviews plastic while those that are her fans kind her to be very gracious. Truthfully it is probably some where in between

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ITA with you and Mathman. And additionally, I think all press interviews are handled in a "politically correct" way geared towards the main audience - I don't ever think they represent 100% truth anyway.

DG