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Thread: For Emma: "War and Pairs"

  1. #16
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hongligl
    Joe, of course the better team of the competition should win. IMHO, even with S's error in SBS jump, B/S's program was still a better one compare to S/P's technically near perfectly performed program(a three-year old one) that night. Rgirl's analysis was very to the point IMO. In addition, if I remember it right, did Jame sat on the ice at the end of their SP? Did they repeat the closing pose, and if things happened to Michelle happened then, was there going to be a deduction for overtime on top of the fall? B/S had a perfect, enchanting SP. So even when there was a tie in LP, I wonder if the SP would be a tie breaker. Anyway, I'm not as diplomatic as emma is, I just think that it is unfair that when you think one team is better that night, you denied the right of others to think the other way.
    Of course, I am not denying anyone's opinion. When it comes to hard opinions the best thing is to agree to disagree when nothing can be resolved. I can, as well as anyone else, disagree with another poster's analysis. Would you deny me that? Golden Skate was full of threads both pro and con on B&S and S&P. Nobody tried to stop all that, or deny anyone their say.

    Actually I don't know the numbers for the total scores. Maybe, you are correct in adding in the SP. If so, I admit I rushed to judgment.

    The bottom line in the judgement of the LP at the SLC was 4 in favor 4 against and another judge was disgraced in an unresolved collusion. A sad state of affairs for both teams. That vote clearly demonstrates that there was a denial of full agreement. No one is forced to agree in a debate I believe itis called Point and Counterpoint.

    Joe

  2. #17
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    I had not been a fan of either team before SLC. Just prefer one style (B/S) better than the other. But the fisco at SLC totally turn me off on S/P. Like most fans and judges agreed it was a 'close call', can go either way, so why can't accepted panel's final decision? Here I'm talking about their reaction right after the competetion. No judge scandel revealed yet, beside even took out French judge's vote, it was still either way. No NA media hype, it was totally inproper for Scott to preclaim a 'scandel' 'this competetion will be talked forever in sports.' as if he knew in advance something will come off. -- This made me think if he was involved in the scandel or preheard something. And if it was why not he came out earlier spell out?

    When at 2001 worlds, it was a close call, the scale tipped to S/P favor. I diddn't hear any 'bitches' from B/S. The only close mention by Rusian in public was B/S's coach mentioned after SLC fisco something in this line "We thought B/S should've won last worlds, but we accepted what judge's decition."

    Oh well.

    Rgirl, thanks for the repost of your analysis. I was not around back then.
    Last edited by mzheng; 06-24-2005 at 08:56 PM.

  3. #18
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    Thanks Rgirl for reposting this

    What can I say, except that I agree with the points you made. While most people prefer to focus on the judging scandal, I think we could all look at the programs and realize we were in one of those situations in skating where you have to pick between a harder but flawed performance vs an easier but flawless one.

    IMO to the untrained eye, the clean performance makes a better impression of course. But through judges eyes, which is what matters because this is a sport, we have to think how much quality and difficulty was sacrificed in order to achieve a clean performance. And maybe it's not so easy to pick the winner then.

    I honestly think it could have gone both ways, it would probably have been fair (or unfair) one way or another. S&P had such a great performance, but B&S had a so much better program, which makes it harder to skate it perfectly. If I was forced to pick, like the judges are, I would go with B&S though, if simply for the fact that they risked and pushed higher. That's always a plus in my book and what moves sport.

  4. #19
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    About the fall out of the final position in Sale and Pelletier's short program, I thought that was on purpose. Lori Nicole is a genius! The program (Jalousie) was about Jamie teaching a clutsy David to tango, so quite naturally they splat at the end. Perfect!

    MM

  5. #20
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    Thank you for keeping and reposting War and Pairs, RG! I read that post 3.5 years ago, and have always remembered the War and Pairs debate that ensued. There were so many people with SO much to say, and your analysis was spot on, IMO.

    I enjoyed reading it again, and thank you to Emma for the request. I managed to save it this time for future reference (you must have forgotten to apply for copyright on it RG ).

    To those who are perturbed that this topic is once again being discussed, all I have to say is you didn't have to open this thread. If some of us choose to debate this issue for the next 50 years, so be it. That is the wonder of freedom of speech on an internet message board and it is our right to speak on whatever topic we so desire. If you feel it's been debated to the enth degree and are sick of it, there are plenty of other topics on this board to read.

    While I am an enormous fan of both teams, I of course favoured the Canadians just a tad more (National pride and all!) and was stunned when the results came up that night. I will never ever forget the way I felt that night. I was so dissapointed with the outcome and with the judging of my favourite sport, that I was ready to just walk away and never watch skating again. With all the scandal that had occured to that point to me it was the icing on the cake. The next day, and after reading many of the posts on this board, I was able to sit back, rewatch the event and could concede that it could easily have gone either way. I think one of the biggest dissapointments for many was that there was finally a legitimate contender to end the domination of Russian Pair's skating, and it *appeared* that night as if it didn't matter what anyone ever did on the ice, the Russians would never be shut out. I think that was the greatest travesty - realizing just how horribly corrupt the system is.

    The icing on the cake of course was when MRLG came forward with the admission of collusion by judges. In an already marred sport, this was the very last thing we needed. While I think the vast majority of us agree that both teams were insanely talented and worthy of the OGM, and that on THAT night it could have gone either way BASED on the skating we saw, I think we all have to remember that the corruption was the reason for the backlash.

    Yes, the media went over board in their coverage and demands but quite frankly, that is what they are paid to do. We as a public depend on our media to be our voice when we otherwise wouldn't be heard. The media was expressing the distaste and dissatisfaction of the general public because that is what we EXPECT of them.

    Yes, there were proclamations made before they ever should have been, but it is an emotional time for them also. I am sure in hindsight the announcers wish they hadn't said what they did, but I think we can all agree that when your emotions are at such a high, often times we say/do things before thinking. They are human too, and while they should exercise restraint, it must be just as difficult for them during such an exciting time as the Olympics.

    Yes, I believe that the vast media hype was the reason that the infamous duplicate gold medal decision was made. That said, it was the corruption within the judging confines that created the problem in the first place. It wasn't the skaters, and it wasn't the announcers. It was the judging alone that was the cause of such a debacle.

    Canuck
    Last edited by sk8tngcanuck; 06-25-2005 at 07:57 PM.

  6. #21
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    OMG, those days were heated! I believe most of us came to the conclusion that it could have gone either way and/or that we respected each other's rights to their personal opinions.

    I do remember watching and being surprised that B&S won, but not particularly appalled by it. Scott's comments bothered me more. My then boyfriend was disgusted by the media hoopla and called S&P cry babies. He's always been athletic and musical, but doesn't believe skating is a sport. He thought B&S's program was much more complex and the snowball tossing was a huge turnoff for him. To this day, I send him updates on S&P just to get a reaction out of him.

    If I recall correctly, I think S&P didn't make any blatant comments. The media and their federation did it all, as well as the French judge.

    Thanks for re-posting RGirl. I must admit that I don't think I was able to read your post all the way through the 1st time , but am glad I got a 2nd chance!

  7. #22
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    It's not that I'm not enjoying the comments being written. They are quite informative and entertaining and nobody is being unreasonable. Good discussion!

    HOWEVER: (hmm...) Whenever discussion on the SLC issue comes up, I'm always amazed that a lot of people think that the furor was caused by people thinking or assuming that S&P had it "in the bag", and then being shocked and stunned and outraged at the result. If this were the true basis for the scandal, it would have put the results of the Pairs LP in the same company of dozens of questionable Olympic results over the decades, with the losers being tearful and disappointed but having to "suck it up". End of story.

    The SLC scandal happened because EVERYBODY in SLC (judges, coaches, press etc), had heard the buzz in the week leading up to the Pairs event, that there was a "fix" being arranged. The audience and the millions of viewers were the only ones who didn't have a clue about this "fix". Everybody in the know, knew. S&P only needed to make one small error in their program, and it would have let the judge in question (French) off the hook. But they didn't.

    One of my dear friends, a Romanian gymnastic judge who disagreed with S&P being awarded the gold, admitted to me a year later when the Mafia story came out of Italy, that some of the coaches in the gymnastics community had told her that indeed the Russian mob angle was true, and that even they admitted there had been an attempt to buy the Russian and French medals in figure skating and ice dance, through an exchange of favours.

    I felt so bad for Elena and Anton during the whole scandal week - I thought they looked so vulnerable and hurt and I hurt for them, but ......it was a small, unethical element from their own country that put them in this awkward and painful situation. The only part the USA media played in the whole affair was in refusing to let this be swept under the rug. It would have been in Europe. (boy, I just made a gross generalization!)

    The "fix" aside, I think that B&S are superior but slightly inconsistant skaters, and on that particular night S&P stole the hearts of the audience.

  8. #23
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Thanks for that insight, Ildah. I don't suppose we will ever know the whole story. A friend of mine who is an elite coach and choeographer told me after the event that, as you say, "everyone in the know was in the know." But she couldn't say anything because that would be the end of her career in skating if she did. (As indeed, it was the end for the whistle-blowers in the affair.)

    Mathman

  9. #24
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Yes, we will never know the whole story because Speedy put an end to it by permiting two gold medals to be issued. He did not want the public to know who was the counterpart to LeG.

    In the long run, maybe Speedy was right. If we disregard LeG's marks and we should if you believe in fair play, then the 4-4 decision was a tie.

    It doesn't surprise me that the fans of either of the teams if they were the 9th judge would put their favorite as the winner for all sorts of reasons. Over and out.

    Joe

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Yes, we will never know the whole story because Speedy put an end to it by permiting two gold medals to be issued. He did not want the public to know who was the counterpart to LeG.

    In the long run, maybe Speedy was right. If we disregard LeG's marks and we should if you believe in fair play, then the 4-4 decision was a tie.


    Joe
    To be fair under the old rules in the event of a tie in the LP the SP is the tie breaker - if you do disregard LeGougne's marks and there is a tie in the LP then the SP is the tie breaker - so B&S would have ended up with gold and S&P with the silver.

    Ant

  11. #26
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    To be fair under the old rules in the event of a tie in the LP the SP is the tie breaker...
    Are you sure of this? How can there be a tie in the LP, under the rules? The "old rules" certainly had elaborate tie-breaking protocols. If one of the judges was unable to complete his/her responsibilities, the scores of the substitute judge were to be used.

    This was Mrs. Jamila Portova (Czech Republic). I'm not sure of this, but I believe that Mrs. Portova said afterwards that she had scored it for Sale and Pelletier. (?)

    Mathman

  12. #27
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Your right Mathman

  13. #28
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    So, if we disregard the French vote, it was a 4/4 split -- a tie. Then, under two different methods for breaking the tie, one favors B & S and the other favors S & P -- another tie. Just out of curiosity, has any of the CoP mavens attempted to score the pairs event to see if that works out to be a tie, also?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ildah
    It's not that I'm not enjoying the comments being written. They are quite informative and entertaining and nobody is being unreasonable. Good discussion!

    HOWEVER: (hmm...) Whenever discussion on the SLC issue comes up, I'm always amazed that a lot of people think that the furor was caused by people thinking or assuming that S&P had it "in the bag", and then being shocked and stunned and outraged at the result. If this were the true basis for the scandal, it would have put the results of the Pairs LP in the same company of dozens of questionable Olympic results over the decades, with the losers being tearful and disappointed but having to "suck it up". End of story.

    The SLC scandal happened because EVERYBODY in SLC (judges, coaches, press etc), had heard the buzz in the week leading up to the Pairs event, that there was a "fix" being arranged. The audience and the millions of viewers were the only ones who didn't have a clue about this "fix". Everybody in the know, knew. S&P only needed to make one small error in their program, and it would have let the judge in question (French) off the hook. But they didn't.

    One of my dear friends, a Romanian gymnastic judge who disagreed with S&P being awarded the gold, admitted to me a year later when the Mafia story came out of Italy, that some of the coaches in the gymnastics community had told her that indeed the Russian mob angle was true, and that even they admitted there had been an attempt to buy the Russian and French medals in figure skating and ice dance, through an exchange of favours.

    I felt so bad for Elena and Anton during the whole scandal week - I thought they looked so vulnerable and hurt and I hurt for them, but ......it was a small, unethical element from their own country that put them in this awkward and painful situation. The only part the USA media played in the whole affair was in refusing to let this be swept under the rug. It would have been in Europe. (boy, I just made a gross generalization!)

    The "fix" aside, I think that B&S are superior but slightly inconsistant skaters, and on that particular night S&P stole the hearts of the audience.
    I didn't know this and it is interesting....I wonder if some of the tv commentating makes more sense (to those who were irked by Hamliton in particular) knowing that this fix had been the buzz for the whole week...thanks for sharing.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan
    So, if we disregard the French vote, it was a 4/4 split -- a tie. Then, under two different methods for breaking the tie, one favors B & S and the other favors S & P -- another tie.
    Yep. I think the ISU was lucky. They had some justification for the "political" solution to the whole mess. And they were able to avoid a throughout investigation by the CAS.
    Last edited by FrenchLady; 06-29-2005 at 11:05 AM.

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