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Thread: The Tight Competitions at the Olys

  1. #16
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    I can't remember the last time i cared so little about any of the men.
    Oh, Ant, how can you say that! For me, this is not only the first time I cared anything about the men, but it is also the first time that I was interested not just in the gold medal, but in placements all the way down. Will Van der Perren make the top six? Does Li have a legitimate chance at the podium? Will the judges give extra rewards (in the PCSs) to skaters who do quads, or will they go strictly by the book?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptichka
    However, I'm sure the Russian federation would gladly "sell" Irina for T&M - the problem being that there are no takers. The only possible "buyers" for Irina would be US or Japan, and neither won of them is likely to make such a deal with Russia.
    What with the random draw and all, folks will have to start being more creative. How about a Russo-Italian alliance? Speedy and the ISU apparatus supports Totmianina and Marinen for gold, and the Russian federation and its allies push for Carolina Kostner for silver at the expense of the American and Japanese ladies. A win-win deal!

    JanetB, I think what people are mostly referring to when they say that Irina was held up is not that she didn't deserve to win, but that the judges liked her technical performance so much that they automatically gave her high component scores across the board, without following the judging protocols about what constitutes outstanding "interpretation," "choreography," etc.

    This criticism is made of the New Judging System generally, however, not just with respect to Irina.

    BTW, I read recently that the ISU plans to use the Nebelhorn Trophy in the fall to test the idea of having separate juging panels for the technical scores (GOEs) and the program component scores. Many people think this is a step in the right direction.

    Mathman

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Oh, Ant, how can you say that! For me, this is not only the first time I cared anything about the men, but it is also the first time that I was interested not just in the gold medal, but in placements all the way down.

    JanetB, I think what people are mostly referring to when they say that Irina was held up is not that she didn't deserve to win, but that the judges liked her technical performance so much that they automatically gave her high component scores across the board, without following the judging protocols about what constitutes outstanding "interpretation," "choreography," etc.

    BTW, I read recently that the ISU plans to use the Nebelhorn Trophy in the fall to test the idea of having separate juging panels for the technical scores (GOEs) and the program component scores. Many people think this is a step in the right direction.

    Mathman
    Well...just to modify MM a bit...I've been into men's for, well, since I've been into skating...but the field is just soooooo deep right now and mixed (I mean the quad people, the brilliant choreography/transitions people etc)...it really is exciting to me.

    About Irina...I too agree with MM that many of us didn't doubt that she won the events, nor did many of us disagree with the technical marks...in fact some of us learned a lot about technical marking by looking at her scores and seeing how 'correct' they seemed...it's like MM said, what appeared to be the inflated and highly uniform PCS's across the board that lead some of us to question her overall score, and the way PCS's can get 'used' to 'hold someone up'. But to clarify my opinion, it was the uniformity of PC's across the board for many skaters that troubled me most last year. About Kwan...i haven't really looked at the scores, but here qualifying was a train wreck and I was surprised she finished (because of it) as high as she did (but like i said, haven't looked at scores)...and there were a few other placments at worlds the troubled me...but can't remember them at the moment.

    About separating the judges for two marks...I think that is a cool idea...it may actually allow judges to look at the substantive areas of the second mark more closely, and it would be interesting to see fluctuation per skater in that mark.

    Finally: someone asked about Z/S....on FSU there's a thread on them that is updated when they update their webpage or journal ...the last I read it said that Zhao's injury had healed, but then also said he can't and isn't yet practicing jumps (makes me think a thrid triple really is going to be out of the question)....then it mentioned something unclear about Shen like 'tiredness'' i hope it isn't something like tendinitis...anyway...i love this team so much that basically anything i read about them gives me worries.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    :JanetB, I think what people are mostly referring to when they say that Irina was held up is not that she didn't deserve to win, but that the judges liked her technical performance so much that they automatically gave her high component scores across the board, without following the judging protocols about what constitutes outstanding "interpretation," "choreography," etc.

    This criticism is made of the New Judging System generally, however, not just with respect to Irina.
    Mathman
    Mathman that the TSS components are not being used correctly is a valid criticism of the current judging under COP.

    However you don’t consistently hear that Evgeny Plushenko is held up even though I could write a post as long as one of Rgirls (not that I don’t enjoy them but a times I do wounder how she can write so much so quickly) explaining why he should not get high marks in the chorography segment.

    Nor is anyone harping on the fact that Miki Ando is got better TSS marks at worlds than Joannie Rochette. When I don’t feel that there is any comparison, Joannie basic are lovely she had great chorography and can actually intrepid music, at times Miki looks very labored, her chorography is so so and she skate through the music most of the time.

    I feel that much of the time Irena gets more than her fair share of the criticism because she has won so many competitions over Michelle Kwan and is currently a favorite for the Ladies Gold while MK isn’t.

  4. #19
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    I just love people who continually spout that Irena was constantly held up all year when if they had watched the event or read the PDF files detailing the results they would see that she wasn’t. Irena’s events where as follows

    Cup of Chine:

    Where she was clean in both the short and long unlike anyone else

    Cup of Russia:

    Short: she had minor jump problems in the short but was ahead of Carolina Koster who had less difficult non jump elements

    Long: clean except for one minor problem, everyone else had more errors

    Grand Prix Final;

    Short: all but clean

    Long: had fewer errors than anyone else

    Europeans:

    Short: magnificent best she ever skated this program, clean as a whistle

    Long: Had errors she was third in the TES but first in TSS but she only won the long by less than one point, arguments have and can be made that she should have been third but she would have won any since she was 10 points ahead of both Susanna Poykio and Elena Liashenko. Julia Sebestyen, who was second in the short, bombed the long, where she came 6th.

    Worlds

    Qualifying round: Know one skates qualifying round really well but Irena had no falls and made errors on only two jumps. Everyone else performance was worse.

    Personally I feel that if anyone was held up in qualifying rounds it was Michelle Kwan, her program was a train wreck, with only two clean triples and she did not deserve the high TSS she received

    Short Program; she had two errors which in no way effected flow of the program which was as usual extremely well skated and these errors did not and should not have effected her TSS scores.

    Long program: this may be the best Ladies long we have ever seen.

    So you tell me exactly were she was held up and what skater should have been ahead of her
    To be honest i was merely going on what i heard about the GP since in the UK we're not blessed with any coverage of any GP events.

    As far as Europeans goes I agree with you about the SP but my objection is to the fact the judges have no problem giving her +2s for elements that they would never in a million years give to any other skater regardless how they do. Irina's jumps for example are very very high, they also tend to be very telegraphed and land at a standstill more often than not, any advantage she gains from the height of the jump i think should be offset by the telegraphing, the change of edge on her flip (which while we're on the subject is not preceeded by steps/turns it is preceeded by ONE turn), and the landing with very little flow, to me her SP is not 10 points better than the people the judges had below her, She was better at Europeans but so much more? Those are my comments on just the jumps, we all know that her combo spin tends to travel an awful lot - without looking at the tape i can't remember this particular competition.

    As for the comment about worlds being the best ladies LP ever ! It was emotionally poignant given what has heppend to her but the best ever, for me it certainly was not, for one it only had 6 triples that counted so in terms of technical its beaten by several other skates over the years. Artistically it was an empty program and there are many more that beat it IMHO, jsut some that were better for me - Sarah Hughes Olympic LP, Tara Lipinski's Olympic LP, Lulu's LPs from '98 Olys, '96Worlds and '95Worlds, Kwan's LPs from '96 Worlds, '98 Olympics, i'm a bit hazy on her programs right now but suspect i would have '01 Worlds in there too...and that's not evening mentioning other skaters from previous era eg Ito and Yamaguchi.

    As i said for me, poignant it was, the best ever ladies LP is certainly was not!

    Ant

  5. #20
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    Mathman that the TSS components are not being used correctly is a valid criticism of the current judging under COP.

    However you don’t consistently hear that Evgeny Plushenko is held up even though I could write a post as long as one of Rgirls (not that I don’t enjoy them but a times I do wounder how she can write so much so quickly) explaining why he should not get high marks in the chorography segment.
    I do and very often! I think his presentation scores have always (even under 6.0) been totally over inflated - his style, as i said before, leaves me cold and i wouldn't call what he does choreography....i'm willing to back down somewhat since i've heard people with similar attitudes to my own see him live and say that his command of the ice and security on his edges changed that for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    Nor is anyone harping on the fact that Miki Ando is got better TSS marks at worlds than Joannie Rochette. When I don’t feel that there is any comparison, Joannie basic are lovely she had great chorography and can actually intrepid music, at times Miki looks very labored, her chorography is so so and she skate through the music most of the time.
    But at worlds i think that would have been totally justified - Joannie had three falls that totally and utterly disrupted the program. I don't doubt that her basics are better usually but after that fall just doing cross overs the marks for basic skating go out of the window, plus she was clearly shaken by that fall and didn't sell the program at all in teh way she was apparently doing so earlier on in the season.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    I feel that much of the time Irena gets more than her fair share of the criticism because she has won so many competitions over Michelle Kwan and is currently a favorite for the Ladies Gold while MK isn’t.
    Some people do but a lot do not. MIchelle and Irina are my favourite skaters. As has already been said i don't disagree with Irina having won the comeptitions she did from last season (except Euroepans which i thought was scandalous) and i think she is a fantastic skater. My issue is with the Judges not giving +GOEs to many other skaters and certainyl not any higher than +1 when i don't think Irina is so much more deserving than other skaters of getting higher GOEs.

    Ant

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    Cohen will most likely win the national title next season. She can now afford a small mistake or two and still win. She'll establish her as the #1 American in Turino.
    I hope more people have this opinion going into Nationals.
    We shall just see what happens.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    I do and very often! I think his presentation scores have always (even under 6.0) been totally over inflated - his style, as i said before, leaves me cold and i wouldn't call what he does choreography....i'm willing to back down somewhat since i've heard people with similar attitudes to my own see him live and say that his command of the ice and security on his edges changed that for them. Ant
    To me there are two parts to chorography, the element layout and how it fit the music and PLushenko does nether well if you look at this post I wrote on the ISU board you get a good explination of what I think

    EP chorography


    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    But at worlds i think that would have been totally justified - Joannie had three falls that totally and utterly disrupted the program. I don't doubt that her basics are better usually but after that fall just doing cross overs the marks for basic skating go out of the window, plus she was clearly shaken by that fall and didn't sell the program at all in teh way she was apparently doing so earlier on in the season.Ant
    I agree with you about the long program but in the short and qualifing to me at least she was heads and shoulders better than Miki



    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Some people do but a lot do not. MIchelle and Irina are my favourite skaters. As has already been said i don't disagree with Irina having won the comeptitions she did from last season (except Euroepans which i thought was scandalous) and i think she is a fantastic skater. My issue is with the Judges not giving +GOEs to many other skaters and certainyl not any higher than +1 when i don't think Irina is so much more deserving than other skaters of getting higher GOEs.

    Ant
    Take a look at the proticals you can down load them from the ISu and you will see that for jumps she rarely gets more than a 1+, very occasionally a 2+ and only once did I see a 3+

  8. #23
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    another thread to remind us that those evil russians are going to be held up unbelievable

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    I think (Plushenko's) presentation scores have always (even under 6.0) been totally over inflated - his style, as i said before, leaves me cold and i wouldn't call what he does choreography....i'm willing to back down somewhat since i've heard people with similar attitudes to my own see him live and say that his command of the ice and security on his edges changed that for them.
    Count me in with the "see him live!" crowd. I have had a chance to see him compete in the Marshall's Invitational in Detroit three times. When Evgeni takes the ice, he is a man among boys. (Plus he seems really nice, which ought to be worth a couple fractions of a point in the PCS scores right there. .)

    To me, the same is true of Irina. Michelle is my favorite and I always hope that she will do well. But the two times I saw her and Irina compete head to head, Irina was the clear winner.

    I don't think it is either jealousy on the part Kwan fans or anti-Russian sentiment in the U.S. that drives criticism of Irina. I think her biggest problem is that the things she does well do not show up on television, while that medium exaggerates her flaws. On TV, you rarely get a chance to see the skaters edges, and you can't judge the power of their stroke, their speed, or their coverage of the ice. These are areas that Irina excels at.

    In contrast, Sasha is a made-for-TV skater. Above the ankles, she is just a gorgeous performer. If you only saw them on TV, you might well be willing to forgive Sasha an occasional slip, while wondering what it is the judges are seeing in Irina to justify such high marks.

    Even on the issue of using the PCS scores to "hold up" skaters, I think there is another side to the story. To me, the best skaters really are the best skaters. Even when the top skaters make glaring miscues, still, the overall quality of their skating can legitimately put them ahead of their less accomplished competitors.

    Plus, there has to be a place where the judges can reward the "total package" performance that is better than the sum of its parts. When a skater can hold the attention of both the audience and the judges, play our emotions like a violin, and leave us shouting, cheering, laughing and crying all at the same time (example -- Shen and Zhou's Turando at the 2003 Worlds) -- that has to count for something.

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-29-2005 at 04:03 PM.

  10. #25
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    Mathman,

    In general I have no problem with E.P. winning (yes I have seen him live) because he is that good. I don't partularlly favour his style, he is too bombastic for me (I hate the program sex bomb with a passon and if I see it or the big head one again I think I'm going to toss my cookies) Within the TSS scores there should be no problem with him getting 8+ in skating skills but 6 in chography because he does have real problems in area. A well layout program that fits the music should get more points than one which is heavilly front loaded and that has lots of posing, after all the first is more difficult to skate and requires more from the skater than series of jumps strung together. As for getting nice points Eman, Jeff and Stephan are all really nice shouldn't we give them nice points to.

    Janet

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    As for getting nice points Eman, Jeff and Stephan are all really nice shouldn't we give them nice points to.
    Yes, especially Jeff! Also Aaron Parcham!

    You don't like the Big Head? The Big Head

    MM

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    I feel that much of the time Irena gets more than her fair share of the criticism because she has won so many competitions over Michelle Kwan and is currently a favorite for the Ladies Gold while MK isn’t.
    I am not a fan of Irina. I do not find her skating appealing, but I stick up for her when I think she should win but I don't always agree that she should. And I don't think there were so many competitions that Irina won over Michelle. Irina was also the favorite in SLC along with MK and Sasha. Figure that one out. Indeed, Irina is the odds on favorite to win the Olys. I don't think many fans are concerend about that. I kind of like it - an older gal winning, for a change.

    It's also a cultural thing and MM would not support that.

    Joe

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious
    another thread to remind us that those evil russians are going to be held up unbelievable
    I've never said "the evil russians" and i don't hold that opinion. I do believe individuals are held up and its usually more to do with their past performances/world rankings. For this Olympic season i believe that Pluschenko and Slutskaya will be held up as they mostly were last season (and Pluschenko the season before as well). I think Michelle has had her fair share of being held up at times over the years based on her previsou performances but that trend is slowly fading now as fr as international competitions go.

    Ant

  14. #29
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    I agree with Antmanb.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Count me in with the "see him live!" crowd. I have had a chance to see him compete in the Marshall's Invitational in Detroit three times. When Evgeni takes the ice, he is a man among boys. (Plus he seems really nice, which ought to be worth a couple fractions of a point in the PCS scores right there. .)
    Which is why i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Kulik's skating never really grabbed me on TV but i've seen him sakte once live and his edges and speed were truly breathtaking. B&S i have always loved watching on TV and i got to see their Chaplin Exhibition number from around 2002 live and it literally moved me to tears - their unison and speed are amazing live.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I don't think it is either jealousy on the part Kwan fans or anti-Russian sentiment in the U.S. that drives criticism of Irina. I think her biggest problem is that the things she does well do not show up on television, while that medium exaggerates her flaws. On TV, you rarely get a chance to see the skaters edges, and you can't judge the power of their stroke, their speed, or their coverage of the ice. These are areas that Irina excels at.

    In contrast, Sasha is a made-for-TV skater. Above the ankles, she is just a gorgeous performer. If you only saw them on TV, you might well be willing to forgive Sasha an occasional slip, while wondering what it is the judges are seeing in Irina to justify such high marks.
    I've never had the chance to see Irina live and don't doubt it highlights her strengths. I have seen sasha skate live once and was truly unimpressed. I've never been a particular fan and find the extreme stretch position uncomfrotable to look at. When i saw her live i could see her wobbly edges and she was noticeably slower than all the other skaters, but again this was in 2002 and i can see from TV that she's made many imporvements.

    Ant

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