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Thread: The Tight Competitions at the Olys

  1. #46
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    okay which lady out there doesn't have a break between the steps and the jump in short program, this is an endemic problem and the few that don't have it (joannie rocette) don't get rewarded
    My beef as i've said previously is that Irina sets up her flip down the entire length of the rink she does one counter turning turn at around teh ahlf way line and then does the flip by the boards, yes there is a break between the turn and the jump - and its a pretty severe one but its this coupled with the lack of footwork going into the jump that for me makes her one of the worst offenders. I remember looking at the SPs from SLC - nearly all of the ladies competitors had clean skates and nearly all did ethe same jumping passes. The person who executed the best steps into triple flip, for me was sarah Meier - there were plenty of diagnoal straightline steps that went immediately into the jump, no one did it as well. Since no-one seems to get points dinged for the jump not being immediately preceeded by steps it seems like a moot point but i wonder if some of hte ladies would eb better off doing triple flip/double toe as the combo and the triple lutz from steps since the LFI mohawk, cross infront allows for the jump to be done immediately.

    Ant

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    I don't think it even matters now under CoP. There is no manditory deduction for missing required elements any more, am I right? It is total points added up for each elements(check IS's SP at worlds, she basically missed/mess two requirements still came out first). Break the steps into the flip hardly matter under CoP, a flip is a flip you still get the base mark without the footwork imediately preceeding it, if everything else is average as well. In order to get credit of footwork imediately into flip, the skater has to be superior in other phases to get +3GOE.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    My beef as i've said previously is that Irina sets up her flip down the entire length of the rink she does one counter turning turn at around teh ahlf way line and then does the flip by the boards, yes there is a break between the turn and the jump - and its a pretty severe one but its this coupled with the lack of footwork going into the jump that for me makes her one of the worst offenders.
    I think its widely known that Slutskaya has one of the best 3flips in the world, the height, technique and execution is second to non. Her footwork leading up to the 3flip in SLC era was not done by any of the top ladies because it was difficult.She does tend to telegraph her 3flip at times, but so do the top ladies competiting against her, no difference. Plus, I do not think Slutskaya's flip is considered a case of sever telegraphing, hardly so. Sever telegraphers are Liaskenko, Fumie(3-lutz, 3loop) and even Elena Sokolova. Recently a lot of folks seem to single out Irina, when the same problem they are criticizing her of, is also a problem experienced by the top ladies as well.......or maybe because she's the world champion and is open to more scrunity. I really want to give others the benefit of doubt.


    I remember looking at the SPs from SLC - nearly all of the ladies competitors had clean skates and nearly all did ethe same jumping passes. The person who executed the best steps into triple flip, for me was sarah Meier - there were plenty of diagnoal straightline steps that went immediately into the jump, no one did it as well. Since no-one seems to get points dinged for the jump not being immediately preceeded by steps it seems like a moot point but i wonder if some of hte ladies would eb better off doing triple flip/double toe as the combo and the triple lutz from steps since the LFI mohawk, cross infront allows for the jump to be done immediately.

    Ant
    Also, your beef shouldn't only be with Irina, add Cohen and Kwan to the list of those who telegraph some of their jumps. I can't remember which competition it was but I think it was a few of them where Kwan and Slutskaya had smiliar
    set-up to their 3flip and both jumped three seconds after the set-up.

    Most of the top skaters out their take some(although a few seconds)time to set up their jumps. If the top ladies did not telegraph even slighly on some of their jumps, i'd be willing to bet the judges would be deducting marks from Slutskaya

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    I don't think it even matters now under CoP. There is no manditory deduction for missing required elements any more, am I right? It is total points added up for each elements(check IS's SP at worlds, she basically missed/mess two requirements still came out first)..
    What did Slutskaya miss/mess up? If your talking about her jump-combo. Keep in mind that she completed the jump combo and was given credit for a 3lutz/2toe but she received negatives for GOE, and that was warranted. I'm not sure if Irina completed the minimum revolutions on the last spin which she kinda had difficulties with, but she always does more then the minimum, so I think she is fine there although the spin garnered negative GOE.
    I like COP in sense that the jumps are not the end all and be all. Thats why I think Sasha is going to win the national title next year.The skater now has to excell in other departments other then the jumps to stay around the top if she/he messes up the jumps.

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    Read my whole post before you picking on.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    I think its widely known that Slutskaya has one of the best 3flips in the world, the height, technique and execution is second to non. Her footwork leading up to the 3flip in SLC era was not done by any of the top ladies because it was difficult.
    Erm....she did ONE turn - not footwork - one turn, the other ladies didn't do that beacuse the rules clearly say steps or turns - plural and require several of them! Also it may be a high jump but she often catches the outside edge on the take off making it a "lip" and often lands her triple flip on the inside edge of the landing skate which causes some of her lack of flow on the jump. If you have a tape of 1998 worlds (at least the UK BBC coverage) you get a slow mo of the flip and you can see the tracing she leaves on the ice showing teh outside edge take off and the landing on the inside edge before she changes back to the correct outside edge. If you want teh best flip in the world i'd look to Sebestyen for that title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    She does tend to telegraph her 3flip at times, but so do the top ladies competiting against her, no difference. Plus, I do not think Slutskaya's flip is considered a case of sever telegraphing, hardly so. Sever telegraphers are Liaskenko, Fumie(3-lutz, 3loop) and even Elena Sokolova. Recently a lot of folks seem to single out Irina, when the same problem they are criticizing her of, is also a problem experienced by the top ladies as well.......or maybe because she's the world champion and is open to more scrunity. I really want to give others the benefit of doubt.
    For me i am holding her out because she is the world champion and one of the favourites for Olympic gold, though i diagree with you i think only liashenko is guilty of worse telegraphing than Irina and the other ladies who telegraph their jumps don't do it as badly as Irina - she takes the entire length of the rink to set up any toe jumps.




    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    Also, your beef shouldn't only be with Irina, add Cohen and Kwan to the list of those who telegraph some of their jumps.
    My beef is with the short program solo triple - both Kwan and Cohen do perfectly adeqaute steps with a minor pause before the jump. To my mind Irina has for the past two or three seasons made no attempt to do anything but one turn before the jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    I can't remember which competition it was but I think it was a few of them where Kwan and Slutskaya had smiliar
    set-up to their 3flip and both jumped three seconds after the set-up.
    Can you explain which compeitions because i have never seen them do the same set up for the SP triple flip...Kwan actually does footwork into it where Irina does one turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    Most of the top skaters out their take some(although a few seconds)time to set up their jumps. If the top ladies did not telegraph even slighly on some of their jumps, i'd be willing to bet the judges would be deducting marks from Slutskaya
    I think that is probably true but i think Irina does telegraph more badly than others and i think the judges feel that the height she achieves over compensates for that which i think is unfair because the flight of the jump if one of four parts that make up the jump under COP and i think she should lose point on the entry for telegraphing and/or changing edge, gain points for the height and distance on the jump and then lose points for the lack of flow on the landing...all in all i think i normal jump from Irina should be getting 0 GOE at best, maybe +1 where she does land with a bit of flow and i think the judges give her +1s and +2s mostly.

    Ant

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    Erm....she did ONE turn - not footwork - one turn, the other ladies didn't do that beacuse the rules clearly say steps or turns - plural and require several of them!
    In her 2002 SP Slutskaya basically just did the one backward turn, glide, forward three into the flip.

    In 2005 she had several steps/turns before the backward turn, so just as many as most of her competitors.

  8. #53
    A. Y. & E. P.: Tzars Of The Ice, Lords Of The Rink anya_angie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyora
    If Plushenko is healthy I can't imagine him not winning by a huge margin. As for the others can Lambiel prove Worlds was not a once in a lifetime competition.?Will Joubert find himself? Can Jeff and Johnny contyinue to rack up those component marks? Can Eman get it together? Will Evan blossom? Can timmy return back to old form plus some?

    As for the pairs, we have two contenders. If Shen and Zhao nail they will be unbeatable. Who else will stand on the podium with S/Z and T/M. Will is be P/T, Z/Z or the other P/T. Will O/S finally reach the podium?

    Dance- Right now my money is on N/K hands down but can D/S pick up the pieces and put together a masterpiece. Will F-P/M and D/V really comerback. If they do can they shake things up at the top?

    Ladies- This year was Irina's year but will next year be her year as well? Can Michelle master COP's. If she puts it into gear adapt her skating to COP's and adds a triple/triple she will be a contender. Can Sasha hold it together? The Olympic pressure has gotten the best of these three ladies before. If Carolina grows artistically and keeps it together watch out. Can Shizuka put last year behind her. Chances are TT will create top notch programs. If Miki does the quad will it give vher enough. Don't forget about Joannie Rochette! Who will be the third US lady? Will the others even make the team?
    The answers will come on the next episode of... SOAP!

    LOLOLOL I used to adore that show :-d

  9. #54
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    My major problem with Irina (and I am not against her winning) is the lack of flow in her program. Each element is so carefully set up that it takes away completely from any kind of choreography there is (including the dealing of cards).

    Even her best trick, the three turns into the loop so carefuly set up to make the third one in the combo the best for take off. I find her performance boring, except for her footwork - not overwhelmed, but with abandoned attitude which I like.

    On a brighter note, she knows the CoP is just scoring the tricks and she is very careful to do them correctly. And the hustle and bustle of grabbing those legs for the Bielmans (ugly - not just Irina) just adds to her scorings.

    She knows how to play the game.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 07-01-2005 at 01:30 PM.

  10. #55
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    Personally I'm more interested in the Tights competition at the Olympics. Is Over-the-Boot the current favorite?

    Although I'm rooting for trousers.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Erm....she did ONE turn - not footwork - one turn, the other ladies didn't do that beacuse the rules clearly say steps or turns - plural and require several of them! Also it may be a high jump but she often catches the outside edge on the take off making it a "lip" and often lands her triple flip on the inside edge of the landing skate which causes some of her lack of flow on the jump. If you have a tape of 1998 worlds (at least the UK BBC coverage) you get a slow mo of the flip and you can see the tracing she leaves on the ice showing teh outside edge take off and the landing on the inside edge before she changes back to the correct outside edge. If you want teh best flip in the world i'd look to Sebestyen for that title.
    Although I have not seen Irina's 98 LP for a few years now(and I don't think I have it) I some how doubt her set up for the 3flip has remained the same since 98. I remember her flip in 2002 worlds SP, I honestly believe it was a thing of beauty and i've never seen another woman perform a 3flip like that of Slutskaya before. But make no mistake, she does have her flaws, even in jumps. Her lack of
    run-out is evident, and some of her triples, mainly the lutz/flip I don't think cover much distance.

    For me i am holding her out because she is the world champion and one of the favourites for Olympic gold, though i diagree with you i think only liashenko is guilty of worse telegraphing than Irina and the other ladies who telegraph their jumps don't do it as badly as Irina - she takes the entire length of the rink to set up any toe jumps.
    You mean to tell me Fumie's 3lutz, 3loop does not have a case of sever telegraphing? c'mon, you've got to be kidding me. What about Sokolova's 3lutz? What about Kwan's 3loop? atleast when it was existent. Even Shizuka telegraphs although its not severe in my opinion. Irina takes the entire length of the rink to set up a toe jump? Okay, now i think your confusing Irina with Elena Liashenko. Its okay to be more critical of a world champion, they are after all considered to be the best in the world, but were you just as critical of Kwan/Arakawa than you are to Irina?






    My beef is with the short program solo triple - both Kwan and Cohen do perfectly adeqaute steps with a minor pause before the jump. To my mind Irina has for the past two or three seasons made no attempt to do anything but one turn before the jump.
    Obviously you and I will not agree with each other on Irina's 3flip, so i'll just leave it at that but i'll go on to say that Irina's solo triple jump at 2005 worlds SP earned plus GOE while kwan and Cohen got negative GOE. It would be really stupid if Irina's coach decides to re-work on her 3flip to stop the telegraphing as judges throughout the whole season believed Irina's 3flip is superior to that of any woman.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    Read my whole post before you picking on.
    But what if I agreed with the other part of your post? Sorry but when you post on public boards such as this one, you open your self to scrunity and questioning from others, sorry i don't make the rules.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    My major problem with Irina (and I am not against her winning) is the lack of flow in her program. Each element is so carefully set up that it takes away completely from any kind of choreography there is (including the dealing of cards).

    Even her best trick, the three turns into the loop so carefuly set up to make the third one in the combo the best for take off. I find her performance boring, except for her footwork - not overwhelmed, but with abandoned attitude which I like.

    On a brighter note, she knows the CoP is just scoring the tricks and she is very careful to do them correctly. And the hustle and bustle of grabbing those legs for the Bielmans (ugly - not just Irina) just adds to her scorings.

    She knows how to play the game.

    Joe
    Wow, you summed up how I feel about Irina completey!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    My feeling is that the World's podium is it. (assuming B&A's citizen issues resolve - otherwise #4 moves up).

    I really don't like feeling this way about dance, and I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. I guess I'll have to wait for the season to begin to see if any surprises are in store!!

    DG
    IMO
    Navka/Kostomarov gold Grushina/Goncharov have been set for silver if B/A can't compete and bronze Denkova/Staviski .The judges have been slowly edging G/G over D/S in the ods .

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    What's the definition of 'telegraph' the jump? IMO, the body 'freez' up for a while before entering into the jump. In that sense I agree with what antmanb has said.

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