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Thread: The Tight Competitions at the Olys

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    Its okay to be more critical of a world champion, they are after all considered to be the best in the world, but were you just as critical of Kwan/Arakawa than you are to Irina?
    I kind of doubt that this person was critical of Kwan at least, since the majority of member of this board lean heavily to being Kwan fans. In fact when I criticized Kwan’s current lack of technical skills, most notability the current lack of a loop, I was told that because I was criticizing for a negative view point my criticism/opinion where not valid.

    What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push yourself and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.
    Last edited by janetb; 07-01-2005 at 07:11 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    What really gets me is that while right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push your self and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.
    Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this with us!!

    I totally agree.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct.
    An interesting opinion, but rather inaccurate. Who are these "people"? Unless you can point out a pattern among specific posters, please don't lump all of us who don't love Slutskaya together, because not all of our posting patterns support what you think.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    An interesting opinion, but rather inaccurate. Who are these "people"? Unless you can point out a pattern among specific posters, please don't lump all of us who don't love Slutskaya together, because not all of our posting patterns support what you think.
    My proof, well there is a 23 page thread on Sasha much of which is a discussion of how bad a skater she is and here we have 5 pages mostly on how bad a skater Irena is. Yet there doesn't seem to be a thread on "Kwan she's lost it" and when you do indicate you don't think she is the be all and end all of ladies figure skating then you get told your opinion is not worth a hill of beans. So while I don't think that everybody who doesn't like Irena is a Michelle fan. I do believe that you will find a lot more negative posts about Irena's and Sasha's skating than you will about Michelle yet when you look at the results and skating of the two years. Michelle has shown little or no improvement in her technical skills and I think you can make strong arguments that her jumping skills are getting worse not improving and her placement have either remained the same or have gotten worse. So who disserve most criticism of their skating, to me MK does, not SC or IS who have both improved or held steady over the last two years.

    It's interesting to note that all three ladies medalist this year faced either injury or a serious illness over the last year yet Kwan who arguably has the best training facilities and structure couldn't put it all together. To me if she is not interested in trying her dammedest to do her best than she should step aside, so that someone who is gets the opportunity to skate at worlds and the Olympics.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    I kind of doubt that this person was critical of Kwan at least, since the majority of member of this board lean heavily to being Kwan fans. In fact when I criticized Kwan’s current lack of technical skills, most notability the current lack of a loop, I was told that because I was criticizing for a negative view point my criticism/opinion where not valid.

    What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push yourself and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.
    I really agree with a lot of what your posting. I'm well aware that majority of the members who post here are in favor of Kwan, nothing wrong with that, really, its only natural to find people who have something in common at one place. But it gets tiresome to see the same old posters criticizing everyone but Kwan. Had Irina been loopless, I think all hell would've broke loose. Sentiments like "she is a top competitor, how could her loop be nill" "it should be a requirement to have all set of triples in the senior rank" and stuff of that sort. But its Kwan who is loopless, so its okay. I've never personally criticized Kwan of having no loop, if she can win without it, go right ahead. Then there is the never ending talk of Irina's biellman. Sometimes being on the other side of the grass puts a lot of things into perspective.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    ... . Had Irina been loopless, I think all hell would've broke loose. Sentiments like "she is a top competitor, how could her loop be nill" "it should be a requirement to have all set of triples in the senior rank" and stuff of that sort. ... Then there is the never ending talk of Irina's biellman. Sometimes being on the other side of the grass puts a lot of things into perspective.
    I don't think that hell would break loose if Irina went loopless -- I would think she is simply saving her hips. Furthermore, without the loop, Kwan still has four different triples, not to mention doubles, with which to create interesting programs. I think one thing that has contributed to more interesting programs has been the Zayak rule, making skaters do a wider variety of jumps. Similarly, while I think that Irina's biellmann positions show that Irina is milking the NJS for all it is worth -- and more power to her -- but I believe her programs would be better still if she used more varied positions in her spins and spirals than the biellmann.

    Question for janetb -- Irina is in a group of 28 singles skaters, male and female -- those who have been the first to land specific jumps or jump combinations. Kwan is in a group of no more than 8 singles skaters, male and female -- those who have won five or more world gold medals. So, how is Irina in a more exclusive group than Kwan?

    IMHO, the most important group they belong to is the one of long-lasting, friendly rivaries -- in which (I believe) they are in a class by themselves (who else has had so consistent a rivalry for over ten years)?

  7. #67
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    attyfan, well said.

    For me it is very understandable this is an NA board, MK simply skated long than Sasha and during all those years she collected more NA figure skating fans than Sasha, if you go a Rusian board I believe you would see all the higher praise on Irina and long ciritisizing threads on Michelle. What's so difficult to understand? If you don't like the place or don't like to pickup the 'fighting' you can always find a place you like to post, right?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excidra2001
    But its Kwan who is loopless, so its okay.
    Well, not completely loopless. She did have a double loop, at the end of a combination too.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    What's the definition of 'telegraph' the jump? IMO, the body 'freeze' up for a while before entering into the jump.
    Elena Liashenko does that. On her Lutz it sometimes looks like she is going to crash into the boards before she can will her body to unfreeze itself and actually jump.

    But the definition in the ISU rules (under criteria for -1 GOE) it defines telegraphing as just a "long entry."

    To me, I don't mind entries that announce, OK, everybody, hold on to your seats, here goes my big, spectacular triple flip -- TA DA!

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-02-2005 at 07:22 AM.

  10. #70
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    About who is the most criticised, it's whoever happens to be riding high at the moment. Right now, in the the U.S., that's Sasha. And internationally, Irina.

    Sasha should be tickled to death that there are 23-page threads about her on figure skating boards. Michelle used to have that honor, back in the day. If some of the posts are critical, I'm sure that makes Sasha cry all the way to the bank. As they say in show business, "I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right!"

    That's S-A-S-H-A, LOL.

    Mathman

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    Well, not completely loopless. She did have a double loop, at the end of a combination too.
    About Michelle's missing loop, at worlds I think she figured, well, Irina's got 5 loops planned (3 triples and 2 doubles), so that should take care of the loop quota for this championship.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetb
    I kind of doubt that this person was critical of Kwan at least, since the majority of member of this board lean heavily to being Kwan fans. In fact when I criticized Kwan’s current lack of technical skills, most notability the current lack of a loop, I was told that because I was criticizing for a negative view point my criticism/opinion where not valid.

    What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push yourself and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.
    ITA, what a great post of telling it like it is.

    I’m a lurker still awaiting for Golden Skate to become a general skating board instead of Michelle Kwan Form II, I have been waiting a long time.

    But in the end the owners can set the tone of board, their right, but it would be nice not to pretend it is a general skating board.
    It’s a shame because skating could use another general skating board.

    I do admire these few who do show up to defend Sasha, Irina and Sarah who are dissing endlessly.
    I do feel that eventually even those few which give up and realize “what’s the use” and not return.

  13. #73
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    Bantering

    I dont find GS a Kwan fest at all. I do think if Irina fans need to defend her every move then she must be doing something they need to defend. Not much faith in her. I read a lot of skating posts and choose not to respond and if its a bashing place I dont go there. I did go to a Lapinski site long ago and it was so brutal it was funny. I read very immature childish posters bashing Kwan in every post. My choice I never went back. I think most posts and posters try to be objective in viewing the quality of the skating. I also think Irina is milking the system with Bielmans and for me its a turnoff its not quality skating its doing a program empty of chore. I think Sasha needs to do a clean program and not depend on spins again with her its spin and win. I think Michelle needs to up the ante and go for it do the 3/3s but keep the quality of her skating. I find a lot of well thought out posts trying to understand the ways the system is being used. I appriciate their input. If you need to defend your fav or dont want to hear honest feedback in others opinions then go to your favs site. I dont mean to be harsh but the Irina defending gets old and people are entitled to their opinion of the quality of her skating as well as others. I want people to continue to post their views of the skaters, skating, and the judges and their judging. Thats what the boards are for. Sorry if it sounds like a rant well maybe it is.

  14. #74
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    I'm not at all sure that it matters what Kwan fans think. If they bore you, they bore me too, and I am a Kwan fan. I also happen to like Sasha. and her fans bore me as well. I am sure if I was on a Russian based skating forum, I would be bored to tears about Evgeni and Irina. I enjoy well phrased and documented critiques of all skater - not just a thrown in 'missing loop jump' for the sake of some sort of put down. I take nitpicking with a grain of salt.

    As for Irina, I reiterate my feelings about how I am not in wonderment over her style of skating and lack of good basic line when skating. But hey, JMO. Nothing to do with her carefully planned loop jump.

    Joe

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    Amazing

    You got it Joeitz its amazing what some posters will zero in on to avoid whats being said. i have opinions also but still like to read how others see the skaters and how they skate. I have not so far ever really posted what I think of some skaters and their skating skills . I do go back and rewatch the comps. I listen to what Dick says and other commentators and then rew the tape and sure enough there it is. I learn a lot that way.

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