The Tight Competitions at the Olys

antmanb · Jul 5, 2005

janetb said:
I kind of doubt that this person was critical of Kwan at least, since the majority of member of this board lean heavily to being Kwan fans. In fact when I criticized Kwan’s current lack of technical skills, most notability the current lack of a loop, I was told that because I was criticizing for a negative view point my criticism/opinion where not valid.

Your doubt is wrong unfortunately - go and check the thread i got into quite a debate with Joesitz because my view was that Kwan didn't "have" a triple loop anymore because i haven't seen her complete one in compeititon for a long time. Joe countered with the fact that she has been landing in them practice and just because she doesn't have one in her competitive programs doesn't mean its gone. I'm more than happy to criticise any skater at this level. The presumption from me is that all of them are pretty much on the level of gods in terms of figure skating, they are the best in the world, the things they can achieve are unbelievable and i point out flaws in all of their skating because each of them maybe have a handful of things that take away from their perfection. I'm not putting them down i'm just noting the few small things that detract from their total and utter perfection.

janetb said:
What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct.

No she's not - she gets her fair share of criticisms - everyone has mentioned her speed on her spins, the height of her jumps, at the start of her career her lack of speed/flow. The thing that gets Kwan brownie points is that she has worked on all of these things and improved. She really worked on her speed and flow in the summer before the 95/96 easons and it showed - everyone commented on her faster speed. After she switched to Arutunian her height and attack on her jumps improved. She's gotten her spin speed up a bit more recently but still needs to work on new/more difficult positions. There are some criticsims of other world class skaters that people have always made and they seemingly have made no attempt to get better at them - i think that's why some people cut Kwan a bit more slack.

janetb said:
Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time .

Was Irina really the first ladies skater to land two triple/triples in an LP? I could have sworn Bonaly landed 3sal/3toe and 3flip/3 toe in an LP in around '95 if not before.

janetb said:
Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members.

And of course no one knows who Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamil, Robin Cousins and John Curry are do they? They might not have pushed the technical envelope but all are rememberd for their exquisite artistry, edges and quality of their basic skating. Kwan changed the way people had to do their programs, why? Because she came out as a teenager and consistently did the seven triple programs, then added a triple/triple to boot and the judges were giving the nod to the quality of skating all jumps being equal. I have no doubt that Irina will go down in the History books as one of the best jumpers of her era and for such a long period of time - that is some achievement, but they both will go down in history for many things - i'm guessing but one of the longest rivals in the sport - look at the results databases - you see two or the three names battling each other for about 3 years and that's it - the last ten years is filled with Kwan/Slutskaya. they are both AMAZING!!

janetb said:
Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push yourself and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.

Yeah she never pushed the technical envelope at all - deciding to switch to a solo triple flip at '95 worlds short instead of the 3 toe that most of the ladies were doing in the short. Adding the 3/3 the following season in addition to maturing her presentation and basic skating skills. Technical does not just mean jumping either - there are spins and footwork to consider. I think Kwan and Yags are two of the few skaters that actually do justice to Morosov's footwork and make it look graceful and beautiful despite the amount of toe pick and heel used - that is technically challenging. If pushing the boundaries of the sport are all you're intersted in then take a look at Tara and her 80 year old hips on a teenagers body...that makes me really sad for her and i hope she thinks it was all worth it. Her programs were just awsome but at what cost to her? Look at Yags too - him having to cut his elligible career down because of the injuries caused by pushing the envelope is extremely sad.

I guess we all value different things in this sport.

Ant

antmanb · Jul 5, 2005

janetb said:
My proof, well there is a 23 page thread on Sasha much of which is a discussion of how bad a skater she is and here we have 5 pages mostly on how bad a skater Irena is. Yet there doesn't seem to be a thread on "Kwan she's lost it" and when you do indicate you don't think she is the be all and end all of ladies figure skating then you get told your opinion is not worth a hill of beans. So while I don't think that everybody who doesn't like Irena is a Michelle fan. I do believe that you will find a lot more negative posts about Irena's and Sasha's skating than you will about Michelle yet when you look at the results and skating of the two years. Michelle has shown little or no improvement in her technical skills and I think you can make strong arguments that her jumping skills are getting worse not improving and her placement have either remained the same or have gotten worse. So who disserve most criticism of their skating, to me MK does, not SC or IS who have both improved or held steady over the last two years.

At last you actually bother posting some substance about your criticisms of kwan instead of just crying fowl that no-one ever does!!!! As i have pointed out in an earlier reply technical skills deos not just mean jumps...Kwan has made consistent progress on her spins and footwork to the point where i dno't hink they've ever been better. Her jumps have not had the same trajectory, unfortunately her jumping consistency and ability have gone somewhat down hill. To my mind she has lost her triple loop and hasn't been able to complete the easiest 3/3 in competition for a few seasons...do you feel better now...? BUt tell me where you think Sasha and Irina are imporving their jumping ability? Irina i don't think is imporving, she is holding pretty steady (a fairly amazing feat given her more "mature age" in figure skating) she's not attempting any jumps she wasn't trying 4 or 5 years ago - she's landed the 3 lutz/3 loop what twice in competition ever, to me that's like MIki's quad - she can do it buts its not consistent in competition - but props to her for landing it again after a long time of not getting/attempting it. Sasha is definitely in the same boat as Kwan in terms of deterioration of her jumps, there was time where she was attempting quad sal and triple luz/triple toe - she's doing either now and also struggles to get more than 5 or 6 clean triples in a program. she has also worked extremely hard to improve her spins and footwork with great success.

janetb said:
It's interesting to note that all three ladies medalist this year faced either injury or a serious illness over the last year yet Kwan who arguably has the best training facilities and structure couldn't put it all together.

I can't comment on the training facilites and structure since i don't know much about the places where all of these skaters - i'd say Irina probably has the worst in Russia, I don't see how Sasha's training facilites will be any worse than Kwan's and Carolina trains most of the year in Oberstdorf - one of the best trainnig centres in Europe, also at altitude and some of the best coaches and certainly the best ice time availability...i'd think they're all fairly equal.

janetb said:
To me if she is not interested in trying her dammedest to do her best than she should step aside, so that someone who is gets the opportunity to skate at worlds and the Olympics.

Is your crystal ball gazing paying off now and you can see into Michelle's mind now about her interst in competing. Why do you think the fourth ranked skater at worlds should step aside - evidently looking at that result there are only 3 other ladeis in teh world who can beat and you think she should "step aside"? Why don't you think someone should have to beat her to get that spot at Worlds and Olympics...this is a sport after all!

Ant

Mathman · Jul 5, 2005

antman said:
The presumption from me is that all of (the elite skaters) are pretty much on the level of gods in terms of figure skating, they are the best in the world, the things they can achieve are unbelievable and i point out flaws in all of their skating because each of them maybe have a handful of things that take away from their perfection. I'm not putting them down i'm just noting the few small things that detract from their total and utter perfection.

antmanb · Jul 5, 2005

Joesitz said:
Way back when I skated, I remember doing both loop jumps and salchows from three turns. Forward Inside for the loop and Forward Outside for the salchow. It was a learning tool for skater wannabees.

I actually like Irina's series of 3 turns into the triple loop. I just wish she would make it less obvious. I think it is the 3 turns that could use some interesting body position and speed to make the element flow.

Joe

Its true her arms are quite rigid in the three turn series...maybe if she could do the three turns with one arm over her head and do a "tano" triple loop? I think that would look very cool, and be devilishly difficult.

Ant

jenaj · Jul 5, 2005

Irina=winning ugly.

curious · Jul 5, 2005

jenaj said:
Irina=winning ugly.

she is winning ugly over the no coreo no technical difficult programs of kwan :biggrin:

dfj · Jul 5, 2005

jenaj said:
Irina=winning ugly.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 5, 2005

Cheer up janetb - The Olys are less than 9 months away. Kwan may not even qualify to do an exhibition, and if that happens just think of how those Kwanfans will feel - not even a goodbye skate. If this happens, it could not only make your day but probably make your entire interest in figure skating life. The wicked witch of Hong Kong just melted away. Put on those ruby slippers, and pray tell us, is there any lady skater you would like to see win the Olys? as we go on to Oz.

Joe

CDMM1991 · Jul 7, 2005

Grgranny said:
When I see negative posts, the first thing I think of is "is this person12 or 13?". Many times I go to the public profile to check it out. A lot of times if they're well written, I'm pretty sure they must be older than that. I try to just put the ones I'm pretty sure are that young out of my mind as I have better things to do. Most "old timers" on this board probably remember my thoughts on how this will affect them as they mature and will harm them in the future if they don't improve.

Grgranny I respect your right to voice your opinion but I felt that comment was blatantly agist. You can't just place people in a category like that, that all younger members of the board, like myself, don't know how to write a well-written post.

Mathman · Jul 7, 2005

CDMM, you are a precociously talented writer and wise beyond your years.

The Tight Competitions at the Olys

antmanb

antmanb

Mathman

antmanb

jenaj

curious

dfj

Joesitz (RIP)

CDMM1991

Mathman

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