Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

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AY2006

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

Fatal-

If you still resent what the Japanese Army did in China in 1930s and '40s, I understand that, and I will apologize to you and all the other Chinese people. (For whatever it's worth. Too bad you don't hear the same from Japanese politicians.)

But please do not try to reinforce the stereotype about Japan, its culture or people. Your description has one foot left in the 20th century, not to mention facutally inaccurate. (Like whales and sushi.) You cannot grasp a country of over 100 million with animation films and video games.

Thank you very much.
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

I didn't get the sense from Fetal's post that he was personally resentful of what the Japanese army did to China in WWII. It seemed to me he was just stating facts. As for the "whales marked for sushi" comment, it seemed pretty clear to me that was meant to be ironic.

Anyway, I found Fetal's take on the differences between Japanese and Chinese culture very interesting and enlightening, especially as they relate to skating.
Rgirl
 
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fml99

Guest
comments/questions

I agree - let's not use this board to discuss/perpetuate racial stereotypes. It is a figure skating discussion forum, after all, and I would hope that everyone would use sports as a way to bridge gaps between cultures, not widen them. Even if the ISU or IOC or sports writers may succumb to politics and racism, I'd like to think that educated fans like ourselves would not.

But anyway, back to the Fumie/Yoshie/Shizuka discussion, I have a question/comment about Fumie's artistry. She strikes me as a delightful person and I'd love to see her win more, but she honestly doesn't strike me as expressive as others on the board seem to think she is. I agree that she is far beyond Yoshie in artistry, but I think that she is on par with Arakawa. From my standpoint, it is more a matter of taste between the two of them. Arakawa is more smooth and fluid on the ice, albeit some would argue that she's too subtle, but I do sense that she genuinely interprets and feels the music. Suguri, however, sometimes seems to be trying too hard to be expressive. I think she'll get to the point of being naturally musical and artistic, but at this point, she still comes across as forced. Am I missing something when I watch Fumie?
 
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yelyoh

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

(This message was left blank)
 
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AY2006

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

rgirl-

"The Japanese are racial elitists, they consider themselves a superior and distinct race and resent their cultural ties to China."

I don't want this to be presented as a "fact." Yes, there are racial elitists in Japan, just like in any other society. But to suggest this is a "general" characteristic of the country is offensive.

On the other hand, still quite a few Chinese people resent Japanese. When World Gymnastics Championships were held in China a few years ago, Japanese girls were literally booed off the balance beam for the atrocity commited by their countrymen decades ago. (Actually, I am afraid Japanese skaters might be booed like that at Four Continents this year.)

Shitoism is not a "combination of animism and Buddhism." It should not be presented as a "fact." And if the way Chinese people behave at Dim Sam restraunts is a "proof" that they are not "reserved" people, what about the way Japanese people behave at Karaoke bars?

If Fatal meant the whole posts (both of them) as satires, that's fine. But I get the sense that the second post was at least semi-serious. And when two posts are put together like that, you cannot say the first one has absolutely no relevance for the second.

Now I stop my ranting and go back to the original topic...
 
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FetalAttraction

Guest
I'm merely monotyping, I swear!

In the past, before any sociological or cultural discussions I make, I usually make a lengthy preface about how this is an observation about a society/societies on a macro level. To apply such observations uniformally is stereotyping, to merely make such observations is sociology. Mmmkay? Got it? I guess I should save this in a text file since I do like to rant about cultures.

For instance, I said "Japan is a Shintoist society." That is a perfectly accurate statement. If I had said, "Fumie Suguri is Japanese, therefore she owns a pet rock," that would be stereotyping. What I said in the post is based on anecdotal evidence, historical facts and actual statistics. Since it wasn't written as an academic paper, I skipped the citations. For me to put that kind of content on this forum, I'd have to be paid. Just take what you can get, or don't.
 
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AY2006

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

fml99-

"Suguri, however, sometimes seems to be trying too hard to be expressive. I think she'll get to the point of being naturally musical and artistic, but at this point, she still comes across as forced."

No, I don't think you are missing anything. I think the criticism that she is "too expressive" is actually that she is "trying too hard to be expressive." I don't think she is not "naturally" musical or artistic. (Not sure about how musical and artistic Arakawa is, but that's another topic.) In fact, I doubt if anything came naturally for her. I recently watched her GP Final performance in 1999, and the only thing that impressed me was speed.

IMHO, what sperates Fumie from Shizuka (or any other Japanese skater) is her "presentation" skills, not artistry. (Okay, she is more artistic than Yoshie, but almost every senior skater is.)
 
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GBMalwayz

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

Well, as I said, I know little of the cultures, but don't confuse chinese and japanese countries, language, skaters or food.

I do have to say if you look at the 4-5 best skaters in the world in terms of longevity, talent, medals won, in the last 10 years, you come up with Japanese, and Japanese/American skaters: Yuka Sato and Kristi Yamaguchi and Chinese and Chinese /American skaters Lu Chen and Michelle Kwan.

If you look at 1994 skater Sato winning at worlds you see the goods, but also the reserve, demureness the shyness. She is a very different skater now after living in the west, marrying an American, etc. She's a better skater. It's not just maturity, she skates with more joy and less tension. She just beat Hughes and Irina. She is still very understated, but some consider her the best in the world. She has grown so much as a pro. Whenever I see her father with his students, I always feel bad for them, as if the marks aren't good enough, he never comforts or smiles and the ladies look ashamed. Which is unfair as the judges can be atrocious, as we all know, and it isn't brain surgery, as Kwan used to say.

These ladies need to skate with a sense of joy, not fear of failure. How can you say, have fun, lighten up when they carry a nation on their backs? After Rgals comments about this aspect, I wonder if the Japanese ladies will ever do better than Bronze? If it's a jumpfest in 2006, perhaps Miki Ando will be on top. The presentation however is a real shortcoming compared to the USA ladies, IMO

Lu Chen, two time Olympic medalist, exquisite World champion - If China were not so new to skating and not communist, Lu Chen might havehad gold. I think the Chinese top pair , S&Z, were well overdue for the world medal. They had to wait, but they had the best technical content for a few years, and the presentation/costumes ---everything to be placed over the Russians and Canadians.

Nagano had 3 perfect skates for the ladies. I think Lu Chen deserved the gold. Tara's jumps not withstanding, I wonder how politics played into that decision? Number 2 was a first generation Chinese American, whose Program was so beautiful. Michelle before her Nagano loss was phenomenal every time out. Number 3 the best lady in China, an Olympic medalist, a world champion, from communist China, Lu Chen.

She came west and did not keep up her technical content, so besotted was she with being "free" in America, but her presentation as an eligible was as good as any lady she was against, and as any Gold Medalist I've seen.

I really wonder now, if there simply was no way a chinese or chinese american skater would be given gold in "Japan's" Olympics? Tara's speed and Tara's jumps? Maybe, but I'll never know as the judging has always been inscrutable, that is for sure.:cool:

I think stereotypes about work ethics and incredible family love and support of most Asian families is true. Lucky Kwan, Lucky Kristi. It is a cultural advantage. It is the best advantage in life, IMO.

When I asked the question, I asked for a Japanese or Japanese/american poster to elucidate what Japan is like now, because I know less, of couse.

I wish the poster who is apparently Japanese would post more on the topic.

FA, you made some very good points; sarcasm is a form of humor. I think if we had totally serious threads without any edge we'd all go to sleep.

Partial kudos as deserved.;)
 
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FetalAttraction

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

Excusing your spelling, shitake mushroom head, Shintoism is a combination of animism and Buddhism. Go ask any theology professor, go on go. Oh fine, let me do the citation thingie for free, here's a link from a Japanese website introducing people to Shintoism:

www.asahi-net.or.jp/~QM9T...ntoism.htm

Racial elitism is a huge problem in Japan, do I really need to go into details? This could get uncomfortable for antsy people who wishes that even if people don't all get along, at least we'll never mention the disharmony. Anyways ...

Japan's involvement in WWII was prompted by racial elitism, the belief that the Japanese military can triumph over America's. I mean, enough people must've had that belief for Japan to go forward with a strike against the US, or is that completely unreasonable?

Fast forward to the 80's, we have Japanese prime minister Nakasone delineating for us the superiority of Japanese society due to its monolithic quality, and that Japanese people and its culture sprang up on the islands individually. Here's a very lengthy, though excerpted translation of his controversial speech:

www.stanford.edu/~brucey/.../nak2.html

While his unkind comments towards America and its pluralism caused much unrest in foreign press, the Japanese could care less. Nakasone had one of the longest reigns in office in postwar Japan, he even recieved an extension on his final term. He was just one man, of course. But one very important man.

But he's not the last prime minister of Japan to engage in plays to appeal to nationalism. As recently as 1999, prime minister Obuchi pushed "for the formal recognition of the Rising Sun emblem and the 'Kimigayo' anthem has a broader significance. The flag and the song are widely regarded as symbols of the emperor worship and Japanese militarism of the 1930s and 1940s." You can read the article here:

www.wsws.org/articles/199...-a02.shtml

Obuchi also wrote to Time magazine lobbying for Emperor Hirohito as "person of the century." He also keeps a picture of Hirohito by a picture of his father in his office. Imagine if the German prime minister keeps a picture of Kaiser Wilhelm in his office, it'd cause quite a ruckus in Germany, eh?

So, please don't tell me racial elitism isn't a big deal in Japan, or it's more or less the same as any other country. I don't idly make observations and post them.
 
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AY2006

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

"I wish the poster who is apparently Japanese would post more on the topic."

I am afraid it's hard to post more when the whole country is characterized as "racial elitist" by Mr. Know-It-All.

Is he suggesting that White Americans in the South are also "racial elitists"? After all, the segregation lasted until '60s. That's even more recent than WWII. And why is Michelle Kwan so popular in Japan, if people there look down on Chinese?

About Nakasone, how does he know "Japanese couldn't care less"? How many Japanese newspapers was he reading at the time, and how many TV networks was he watching? And since he knows about everything, he probably knows about former Prime Minister Mori, whose remarks about Shintoism and the Emperor cause a huge stir in Japan, which eventually led to his downfall. Well, maybe it doesn't matter to him because that kind of "news" didn't back up his agenda.

BTW, the article you linked does not say Shintoism is a combination of animism and Buddhism. It says Shintoism changed significantly since Buddhism was introduced to Japan and two of them blended. Perhaps you should read more carefully before you call me a shiitake mushroom head.
 
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FetalAttraction

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

How ungrateful. I actually took the time and effort to do the citations, the least you can do is skim over them. Well, I never!
 
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AY2006

Guest
Re: The inscrutable Orientals

"Whenever I see (Sato's) father with his students, I always feel bad for them, as if the marks aren't good enough, he never comforts or smiles and the ladies look ashamed."

Sorry to disagree with you, but I have never got this impression from Nobuo Sato. He makes his students extremely hard, but I never thought he makes them feel "ashamed" of their poor performances. Fumie looks that way when she doesn't skate well. But I think that's because of her personality, and has nothing to do with Sato. He may not smile in Kiss & Cry, but I think he is positive and costructive even when the skater performs poorly.

"These ladies need to skate with a sense of joy, not fear of failure. How can you say, have fun, lighten up when they carry a nation on their backs?"

I have never got this impression about any of Sato's skaters. If anything, Machiko Yamada's skaters seem to fit this better. Remember Midori Ito apologizing to the nation after SP in Albertville? Many people in Japan gasped at how old fashioned she was. And when the Japanese federation asked her to get Olympic berths in Nagano, she reinstated as an amateur (although it wasn't successful, and she didn't stay long enough). Yuka was also asked the same, but declined the offer. (For that matter, I don't think Yuka apologized when she messed up SP in Lillehammer.) A few years ago, I read a magazine interview of Midori and she said she was "enjoying" skating much more than her eligible years.

Yuka seemed to be more of an "individualist" even when she was an eligible skater. And to a certain extent, Fumie as well. She will probably pursue pro career in North America if it's possible. I don't know if it's Mr. & Mrs. Sato's influence or certain skaters choose them.

Finally, yes, Yuka skates with much less tension today. But isn't it true about all skaters who move from eligible to "pro" ranks? Doesn't Butyrskaya, for example, also skate with less tension?
 
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GBMalwayz

Guest
Re: The inscrutable judges/learning about new cultures

Ay2006,

I guess your name shows you are not an elitist;) By this I mean you apparently are rooting for Alexei should he make it there, and not a top Japanese skater. What do you think of Takeshi Honda? Also, why have we not seen pairs and dance flourish in Japan? Is the emphasis on single's skating? Or is it a matter of not having many pairs coaches in Japan at this time?

It is hard to post with "know it alls", whether they do know or not, but don't let that deter you. You have as much right as any other poster, especially if questions arise about skaters from your culture or country.

I remember now that you remind me,:) of Midori Ito apologizing.
I guess for my part, I was trying to understand why there is this feeling of pain that comes right through the tv when Fumie is not marked well. This tradition of suicide when letting someone down, is it still an issue in Japan's society? That is the Japan most Americans know of.

I can't speak to Chinese-Japanese history, or current relations. I can only say more personally, that my father was drafted into WW2 and is not a fighter by nature. He was in the Pacific theatre as a seargant for 4 years. He never talks about the war, but it affected him deeply. I have watched all the war documentaries, but he has no interest in the retelling of wars he rermembers perfectly. It has always impressed me that Japan and the United states became trade partners and allies. Amazingly, most people who fought the war, don't hate Japan or talk about mistrusting the country. I think I know more about the Japan of the past than the present. My city has no Japanese American population. Well this is off the topic, but I don't want you to think that I harbor mean sterotypes against the Japanese. I would have travelled there long ago were I able. There is so much beauty in Japan.

I think Yuka Sato is a very confident lady now. Maria B? She has been in two competitions and she was very nervous looking for the second one. I think she came in 4th in the Hallmark. Perhaps that will change when she no longer feels "eligible". I don't think she will ever be a relaxed skater. Watching her was always so painful.

Fumie, we hear is so nice. I think that's why so many americans embrace her. I hope they all work on their layback spins and extension. Also, I wonder, are they told to attend ballet classes? To compete with the Russians or the Americans, that is necessary. Glad to chat with you and happy new year. Do you live here or there, BTW?:)
 
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rumie

Guest
Re: The inscrutable judges/learning about new cultures

Japan's involvement in WWII was prompted by racial elitism, the belief that the Japanese military can triumph over America's. I mean, enough people must've had that belief for Japan to go forward with a strike against the US, or is that completely unreasonable?

Just to correct that statement, first Japan's involvement in WWII was a result of many factors, including antagonism over the race issue. It started with Japanese discontent over America's racist laws that either bared Japanese immigration or discriminated against Japanese citizens (and often their children) in America (such as the law forbiding them to own land in California).

Relations between the two nations were further damaged in this regard when American President Woodrow Wilson, rejected Japan's desire to recognized as racial equals when they brought it up at Versailles Peace Conference in 1919 (although they fought on our side).

The main reason for war, though, was oil- or more specifically, the embargo of oil to Japan from the United States that was in retaliation of Japan's expansionist policy. Ironically this policy had been supported by America since before WWI (as seen in the numerous treaties recognizing Japan's domination of Manchuria) and ended when it interfered with America's belief in an "Open Door" (ie free trade) in China. The actual order to embargo oil (a crucial part of Japan's war machine that in turn provided needed materials to the homeland) was an error but FDR refused to rescind it to save face. FDR then further compounded the problem by refusing to meet with the pro-peace Prime Minister therefore aiding a pro-war faction to come into power. It also didn't help that during negotiations to prevent war, Cordell Hull, the racist American SOS (Secretary of State), refuse to compromise.

So while racial elitism on the part of the Japanese may have played a role it was a very minor one. I would actually say that America's feelings of racial superiority played a larger one. (By the way if anyone needs to verify the information, you can find it in American Age by LeFeber, Patterson's anthology, Major Problems in American Foreign Policy, or in the lectures of Professor Diane Shaver Clemens, UC Berkeley, in her History 130B: Diplomatic History of US course).

Sorry to be so long winded, especially on my first post but this is a topic that I am especially interested in. I hope none of you think of me as a know it all :) . As for the original topic of Japanese culture and presentation in figure skating, I personally find Yuka Sato and Fumie Suguri to be subtle but full of emotion. Yuka much more than Fumie, but I really liked Fumie's Ave Maria.
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: The Context of the Word

AY2006,
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I didn't get the sense from Fetal's post that he was personally resentful of what the Japanese army did to China in WWII. It seemed to me he was just stating facts.[/quote] I used "facts" only within the context of Fetal's comments about the Japanese invasion of China in WWII. The rest of Fetal's post, as Fetal himself so well described, was obviously (at least it was to me) sociological analysis--a combination of factual events subjectively interpreted.
Rgirl
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: Fumie's Presentation/Artistry

fml99,<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Suguri, however, sometimes seems to be trying too hard to be expressive. I think she'll get to the point of being naturally musical and artistic, but at this point, she still comes across as forced. Am I missing something when I watch Fumie?[/quote] I agree. I get the same feeling watching Fumie. It's an especially subjective thing, I find, in an already very subjective area. But it's not just you. I don't feel Fumie has found her presentational niche yet. I prefer Shizuka's presentation and personally feel that Fumie is overmarked for presentation. But many people prefer Fumie's style, which I find very similar to Michelle Kwan's. So we may be in the minority, at least regarding Fumie:) I like Fumie's personality though, and as I said before, I like a lot of her individual elements.
Rgirl
 
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FetalAttraction

Guest
Re: The inscrutable judges/learning about new cultures

rumie,

I did not say the impetus behind Japan's involvement was racial elitism. I said the reason they went ahead was racial elitism. It was a belief that they could defeat the military powers of the United States that allowed them to go ahead. Get the difference? No? Yes? Class dismissed anyway.
 
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FetalAttraction

Guest
Re: The inscrutable judges/learning about new cultures

GBM,

Either argue the facts and points I made or get over it.
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: The inscrutable judges/learning about new cultures

Rumie,
Welcome to GS!
Rgirl
 
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Linny

Guest
Japan skaters

The irony of using the phrase "save face" to describe the actions of an American President when the original subject was Japanese skaters tickles my funny bone. Anyone up on their etymology?

Linny
 
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