A question about Sasha's back flexibility and technique...

I've noticed some posters in the past making some interesting comments on skater's phisiology, and technique, and wanted to get some thoughts on Sasha's technique on some of her back flexibility moves. I always though the line on some of these moves looked odd, but could never put my finger on why exactly. I think I figured it out though. It looks like she pushes her pelvis forward and her butt back, in order to obtain the arch in her back...its especially noticable in her ina bauer, but also pretty noticable in her spread eagle. Take a look at the pictures below
ina bauer
spread eagle

Would this technique be considered incorrect? Could it be contributing to her back problem. It doesn't seem to be something that she does in her layback, so I'm not sure why she would need to do it to achieve a bend in other moves. It seems odd to me because Sasha is generally regarded for her flexibilty, but it seems like this would be something a skater would have to do to compensate for not having a lot of flexibitly in the back.
Any thoughts, comments or observations on this? Perhaps I'm completely off base?
here's a pic of the bend in her layback for comparison..layback

Hmmm very interesting observation. In the first picture it is extremely obvious. I almost feel ripped off that all these years I thought it was extremely impressive flexiblity when in reality it was a matter of sticking your butt out.

Very interesting observations!

BravesSkateFan said:

I've noticed some posters in the past making some interesting comments on skater's phisiology, and technique, and wanted to get some thoughts on Sasha's technique on some of her back flexibility moves. I always though the line on some of these moves looked odd, but could never put my finger on why exactly. I think I figured it out though. It looks like she pushes her pelvis forward and her butt back, in order to obtain the arch in her back...its especially noticable in her ina bauer, but also pretty noticable in her spread eagle. Take a look at the pictures below
ina bauer
spread eagle

Would this technique be considered incorrect? Could it be contributing to her back problem. It doesn't seem to be something that she does in her layback, so I'm not sure why she would need to do it to achieve a bend in other moves. It seems odd to me because Sasha is generally regarded for her flexibilty, but it seems like this would be something a skater would have to do to compensate for not having a lot of flexibitly in the back.
Any thoughts, comments or observations on this? Perhaps I'm completely off base?
here's a pic of the bend in her layback for comparison..layback

Click to expand...

I'm really interested in this topic!! I'm not a physiologist (or whatever type of medical person who would know for sure) but I've often wondered about this. Here's my own speculation. While the FS fan world at large seems to treat "flexibility" as an all encompassing quality, I personally think it's a bit more specific than that.

I think the moves that have given Sasha her reputation for "flexibility" have a lot to do with her hip joints, not necessarily her lower back. Two different things IMO.

I am specifically thinking of comments along the lines of "Sasha should just Biellmanize her programs like Irina!" I doubt she can, because I don't think Sasha has the lower back flexibility anywhere near her hip flexibility.

For the same (but opposite) reasons, I don't think Irina has the hip flexibility that would allow her to achieve some of the positions that Sasha is capable of.

I realize this is a very novice and "general" assessment, and I'm very interested in what others have to say.

DG

I'm no skater so I am not speaking from experience but I looked at some pics of her layback and it appears that these moves are different types of balance. In her llayback for instance she is pretty much almost bent double backwards and it isn't even possible to "stick her butt out" in the layback spin. better pic of Sasha's layback

There is nothing wrong with her Ina or Spread Eagle they are gorgeous. Her Ina IMO is by far the most beautiful fo any of the ladies.

I think Sasha'a flexibility mainly is from her talent plus her gymnastics training and her mother's gymnastics experience. In a few interview articles, Sasha talked about that her gymnastics coach spent a lot of time and effort to strech them and train them like rubber bands. Her later on ballet and streching helped her maintain the flixibility. Recently I watched the 2005 Worlds and saw that before her turn to compete she was doing back streching on the floor while John Nicks was doing his word puzzle.
Sasha updated her journal. She talked about she got her triples back. I am wondering if this is common for elite skaters losing their triples for a while and later getting them back.

SK8INGRULZ said:

I'm no skater so I am not speaking from experience but I looked at some pics of her layback and it appears that these moves are different types of balance. In her llayback for instance she is pretty much almost bent double backwards and it isn't even possible to "stick her butt out" in the layback spin. better pic of Sasha's layback

There is nothing wrong with her Ina or Spread Eagle they are gorgeous. Her Ina IMO is by far the most beautiful fo any of the ladies.

Click to expand...

I think the original poster said that she DID NOT notice Sasha sticking out her butt in the layback, so that wasn't even part of the question.

As for Sasha's spread eagle, personally its not my favorite. I've seen better. She does sort of stick her butt out, which makes it easier to balance. Her Ina Bauer is nice.

I agree that Sasha has more flexibility in her hips than her back. In regards to her back according to her book her back problems stem from extreme arthritus in her lower back. Her first back injury wasn't a stress fracture as suspected as the MRI and xrays never proved it. After several doctors the final one diagonsed her with the arthritus and the physical theapy did the trick. The last back injury was a muscle strain I think and combined with the arthritus made it worse. She has to do her back exercises regularly otherwise it will hurt. Unless they find a cure for arthritus it isn't going to go away.

dancindiva03 said:

I think the original poster said that she DID NOT notice Sasha sticking out her butt in the layback, so that wasn't even part of the question. As for Sasha's spread eagle, personally its not my favorite. I've seen better. She does sort of stick her butt out, which makes it easier to balance. Her Ina Bauer is nice.

Click to expand...

Dancindiva, the original poster specifically said "It doesn't seem to be something that she does in her layback, so I'm not sure why she would need to do it to achieve a bend in other moves." I was only making the point that I don't see how it would be possible for her or any skater to stick their butt out during a layback I was unclear why the original poster made the comparison.

I agree her Spread Eagle is not my fav but her Ina is definitely my fav.

I'm not one for photos as proving much. I think Sasha's back looks fine but then I think it is posed more than skated. Does anyone have a pic of Shizuka's inabauer? Shiz does have the best, imo, and it would be good to compare them although I don't think photos tell the truth.

Joe

SK8INGRULZ said:

I agree her Spread Eagle is not my fav but her Ina is definitely my fav.

Click to expand...

Same here.
I like her Ina better than Arakawa's. Arakawa's looks too gumbie.
What I found her Spread Eagle not so attractive or perfect excuted is not her butt position, as other posters pointed out, but her bended ankels. Plus her bended back position, you can tell she has problem to keep her body balance out of the center force when she dose this move. That's why she bened her ankel and back to compromise.

I think Arakawa's ina is the best out there. Here are some pictures:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/images/photos2004/sp20041107a1a.jpg http://theskatingtimes.com/images/2004/eoi-10-09/0224.jpg
http://www.scratchspin.com/2004/worlds04/fs-0407120.jpg (Best one)

P.S. You're probably right Joe, pictures can't tell everything

I've been away from my computer for the last week, so haven't been able to come in and read the comments. Just a few responses from me...

agree that Sasha has more flexibility in her hips than her back. In regards to her back according to her book her back problems stem from extreme arthritus in her lower back. Her first back injury wasn't a stress fracture as suspected as the MRI and xrays never proved it. After several doctors the final one diagonsed her with the arthritus and the physical theapy did the trick. The last back injury was a muscle strain I think and combined with the arthritus made it worse. She has to do her back exercises regularly otherwise it will hurt. Unless they find a cure for arthritus it isn't going to go away.

Click to expand...

But could using this "technique" of pushing out the pelvis be contributing to her back problems? It certanly doesn't look comfortable...

I was only making the point that I don't see how it would be possible for her or any skater to stick their butt out during a layback I was unclear why the original poster made the comparison.

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Actually that was kind of my point. I know that its hard to stick your pelvis/butt out during a layback, yet sasha can still achieve a good back bend. So if she can do it during the layback why not in the other moves?

I'm not one for photos as proving much. I think Sasha's back looks fine but then I think it is posed more than skated. Does anyone have a pic of Shizuka's inabauer? Shiz does have the best, imo, and it would be good to compare them although I don't think photos tell the truth.

Click to expand...

I actually agree with you about photos Joe, but I've seen Sasha do it so many times on TV and in videos that I have no doubt that its not just a result of timing on photos. Actually when this observation first hit me was when I was watching a video montage of Sasha. Its much easier to place a photo up for view than a video, but honestly if you look at several vids of sasha you will find that its apparent.

BravesSkateFan said:

I've noticed some posters in the past making some interesting comments on skater's phisiology, and technique, and wanted to get some thoughts on Sasha's technique on some of her back flexibility moves. I always though the line on some of these moves looked odd, but could never put my finger on why exactly. I think I figured it out though. It looks like she pushes her pelvis forward and her butt back, in order to obtain the arch in her back...its especially noticable in her ina bauer, but also pretty noticable in her spread eagle. Take a look at the pictures below
ina bauer
spread eagle

Would this technique be considered incorrect? Could it be contributing to her back problem. It doesn't seem to be something that she does in her layback, so I'm not sure why she would need to do it to achieve a bend in other moves. It seems odd to me because Sasha is generally regarded for her flexibilty, but it seems like this would be something a skater would have to do to compensate for not having a lot of flexibitly in the back.
Any thoughts, comments or observations on this? Perhaps I'm completely off base?
here's a pic of the bend in her layback for comparison..layback

Click to expand...

Perhaps this is what you are trying to say:

Grace Elements - Spread Eagle

"The Spread Eagle is a gliding move in which the skater spreads his legs in an "upside-down V" shape, with toes pointing "out" (heels pointing at each other, but spread apart), then glides "sideways". The skater faces perpendicular to the direction of travel, but the 2 feet are in a single line relative to that travel (they make a single tracing on the ice). Hard to describe, but beautiful to watch. If you can't imagine what this looks like, think about almost any program you've seen Brian Boitano perform, and you'll probably get the picture.

The Spread Eagle can be done on an outside edge (skater leaning "backwards") or an inside edge (skater leaning "forwards").

In a well-executed Spread Eagle, the skater's body is in a straight line. Many skaters who have not quite mastered the Spread Eagle bend at the waist, which gives a "butt sticking out" appearance which is not attractive.

In this awesome sequence, Megan performs an Outside Spread Eagle, followed by an Inside Spread Eagle, followed by another Outside Spread Eagle, and finally ends with a short Ina Bauer. "

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_g_spreadeagle.htm

Actually in comparison to this picture, Sasha's spread eagle is textbook. Her stance is almost perfect. The spread eagle is not an easy move and not every skater has the flexibility to perform one correctly. Sasha has it in spades.

Grace Elements - Ina Bauer

"The Ina Bauer is similar in some ways to a spread eagle, but when performing a Bauer, the skater's feet do not describe a single straight tracing on the ice. The blades are parallel, but are offset by 10-24 inches, such that 2 parallel lines are drawn on the ice. The back foot is always on an inside edge. The front foot may be on either edge, or the flat - the skater's path will curve in different directions or go straight, depending on the front edge.

Sometimes the skater arches over backwards into a pretty position."

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_g_bauer.htm

There is no comparison between this skaters' ina bauer and Sasha's. The flexibility in Sasha's arch allows her to add to the move. Again not every skater is blessed with such flexibility and can only do a basic move.
Layback and Attitude Spins

"The Layback spin is a very attractive variant of the upright spin. To perform a layback, the skater (usually) puts her arms in a circle in front of her body, then arches her back and looks at the ceiling while spinning. It is one of the most beautiful of spins. The variety of possible arm, back, and leg positions seem to be limited only by the artistic creativity of the skater. Shown here are several of the possibilities."

The layback spin and both the bauer and spread eagle are different elements. Sasha probably has the loveliest stance for these elements because of her amazing flexibility.

It's a treat to see elements such as these executed so lovely. Figure skating is about perfecting balance and coordination and in my opinion Sasha achieves this effortlessly.

Actually I prefer the SE and IB from the pics you posted to Sashas.

In a well-executed Spread Eagle, the skater's body is in a straight line. Many skaters who have not quite mastered the Spread Eagle bend at the waist, which gives a "butt sticking out" appearance which is not attractive.

Click to expand...

Sasha doesn't bend at the waist, but she does stick her stomach out one way and her butt out the other way in order to achieve an arch in her back. Its not an issue of balance causing her to stick out, but rather an issue of trying to achive arch.

OK - I'm going to disagree with all of you. Looking at Sasha's inability to tuck her behind in on her spread eagle leads me to believe that she does not have perfect turnout (i.e., she does not have extreme rotational hip flexibility). Sasha does have great flexibility in her back, as evidenced by her layback, and she also has great flexibility in a traditional split position (which allows her to do her 180 spiral and Charlotte), but if she could turn out completely at the hip, she wouldn't need to stick her butt out on the spread eagle (leading to what some people refer to as a "rump eagle"). JMO.

CDMM1991 said:

I think Arakawa's ina is the best out there. Here are some pictures:

Click to expand...

Are we forgetting Yukina Ota

I found better pictures of Sasha's Ina.

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2002skatecanada/practice/practice7.jpg

http://www.sashacohen.com/photos/sashanews.gif

Thanks for the pictures. Sasha's ina looks a bit creepy to me, the way her stomach looks. I prefer Yukina's ina it looks natural and relaxed. I do like the way Sasha's arms follow through the shape of the arc she creates.

I cringe every time Sasha does a spread eagle. Her ankles *shudder*, my dad made up a name for the way her position looks "Pajaro nalgon a media laguna."

I can't really think of any lady with a great spread eagle right now. I'd say YeBin Mok is the best I've seen recently.

Thanks for the pictures, registered.

To me it looks like the difference between sasha's and Shizuka's position is that most of sasha's bend is in her lowere back, while Shizuka arches the upper part of her back more. (?)

Here is Yukina, BTW. But it is hard to see much about her back position from these two pictures.

http://www.oei.co.jp/~ikumi/XmasStars2002/photo/yukina_ex08.jpg

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:REdgyEWhdWwJ:http://www.vesperis.com/04fourcont

MM