Does anyone think Michelle has a chance?

DoggyGirl - Applying the COEs appropriately is sooooo subjective. Don't hope. Just eat it up. hwell:

Joe

mzheng said:

IIRC, it is reflected in GOE. More than required revolutions is one of the critirias to get +3 GOE in spins (at least by the old spec).

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You see that's where the levels and GOE are totally wrong - i know that in order to do a long spin you have to be doing it well. BUT the number of revolutions is what makes a spin harder, if it wasn't then they wouldn't specifiy the minimum number of revoutions for spins in order for them to count. The lower level tests wouldn't say that you have to do 3 revs on your sitspin to pass it but by the time you move up to the next level that number has increased.

They're so busy counting revolutions in the jumps to dtermine their difficulty but the same analogy on spins isn't followed...i know i'm being extreme becasu the two are very different skills, but the thoery is at least comparabale...see how many of the sakters could do a camel-change-camel with 12 revs on each foot?

Ant

hockeyfan228 said:

First, I don't think this is a problem with CoP. It's an issue of "follow success." I've sat through plenty of awful COE spirals during the 6.0 era after it became Kwan's signature move. Weak versions of Cohen's I-spin also began during the 6.0 era. The classic layback became optional once Kwan was able to win with the drop leg version.

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But copying famous skaters moves doesn't produce the same number of "indentical" moves as writing it into the rules. Kwan's change of edge spiral is a great example - she's been doing it for years and lots of people copied it, now many mnay more are doing it because it has been codified as level enhancer. I don't think there was an increase in the drop leg layback with kwan - in the lower levels its always been there along with the sideways leaning spin as a way for a girl to do the spin even if the height or turnout of the free leg isn't quite as good as it should be. Didn't Lucinda Ruh start the current trend of the "crescent moon" layback?

hockeyfan228 said:

The other thing is that I don't think this is such a problem. Compulsory dances are the way to compare each team doing the exact same thing, instead of comparing apples to oranges.

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Well great - if you want that kind of exact science lets bring back figures and scrap free skating. It is the "free" in free skating that was what people loved watching and doing which led to the dropping of figures. The level of creativity just isn't there with a compulsory dance and i would hate to see free skating go down that route just because some mad speed skater decided to try to cover up his cronies shenanigans by implementing a new judging system to anonymize those cronies simultaneously trying to throw people off the scent of what hewas doing by coming up with badly thought out code of points to suplpment his anonymous judging.

Ant

Doggygirl said:

ITA with you about the skating skills recognition. I think in it's own way, this does take place as it must be more difficult to keep a spin centered, fast, with many revolutions in a more difficult position with respect to balance, etc. than an easier one. I would like to see more skaters (especially ladies - IMO the men overall have been more innovative here i.e. Weir, Lambiel, Buttle, Sawyer and that amazing split thing he does...) come up with interesting and difficult positions that suit their capabilities/ body type. AND hold them long, fast, centered, etc. I think there is lots of room for more innovation among many of the ladies - and I hope they are all working on some amazing new moves that will surprise and delight us.

Irina's strength this past season in terms of utilizing the difficult Biellmann position to her advantage should highlight a big opportunity for others next season. If that level of difficulty can be achieved while using a wider variety of moves, I sure hope that type of strategy would be rewarded on the PCS side of things.

Sorry again about that out of control nerve.

DG

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Don't worry about it - i've read your other posts and they are totally reasoned and justified so i was surprised by it! No hard feelings!

I agree that the men have been more inovative with their spins than the ladies, although there have been some painfully slow "other edge" spins from the men...i can't remember for sure but didn't Joubert have a really bad back inside sitspin that really crawled round for a couple of revs only?

And speaking of spins - i've been delving more and more into the CoP and they actually have a section in the flying spins for laybacks :scratch: A flying layback?! How the hell could you do a flying layback? Anyone have any ideas?

Ant

hockeyfan228 said:

Remember that the Biellmann spiral was used successfully by Shizuka Arakawa in her World Championship Turandot program in 2004, and that it was choreographed by Tarasova, a friend of Gromova, Slutskaya's coach. Arakawa's spiral was rated a L1 at Trophee Lalique and L3 at GPF under CoP. (I don't have tapes of both programs to see how or if the spiral changed.) Slutskaya is not the first top skater to use it in the spiral sequence, but it plays to her strengths, not her weaknesses like the traditional spiral.

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And hey Evgeni's been using the Biellmann spiral and spin for years (with mixed feelings from the fans ) and he's clearly done very well for himself with it!

Ant

antmanb said:

Well great - if you want that kind of exact science lets bring back figures and scrap free skating. It is the "free" in free skating that was what people loved watching and doing which led to the dropping of figures. The level of creativity just isn't there with a compulsory dance and i would hate to see free skating go down that route just because some mad speed skater decided to try to cover up his cronies shenanigans by implementing a new judging system to anonymize those cronies simultaneously trying to throw people off the scent of what hewas doing by coming up with badly thought out code of points to suplpment his anonymous judging.Ant

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Boring? YES!, but a clearer cut distinction of how well skaters compare.

The SP does have the particular elements which all skaters must follow. I would not allow any options so that all skaters are judged on the same elements . As it is in Dance, I would rule that the choreography be the same. I also think the music should be the same. Boring? YES! but this is a competition - not a travelling road show.

However, the PCS scores would still be subjective, but at least we would have a clear cut comparison of the contestants regardless of what the secret judges think.

OK, let the LP roll. Let the skater do his thing. Put on a show. Use the warhorse music of his choice that everyone loves. Thrill the fans with the best acrobatic elements. Employ innovation (which usually means an extra air turn or yet another contorted position in a spin). The LP will be free.

Figure Skating, like Ballet, is finite. It has just so many moves. What makes it especially interesting for me is the use of those moves in a rarely well choreographed program. IMO, not all ballet is worth watching and figure skating is just about the same as far as appeal goes.

Joe

Does Anyone Think Michelle Has A Chance?

Yes, I do!