I will say that's interesting, Fetal. Now go back and stir your pot.:lol:
I will say that's interesting, Fetal. Now go back and stir your pot.:lol:
First of all, you are very funny. Secondly, I appreciate you correcting my spelling. I should use spell word check, but I don't. I am lazy in writing my post. I never proof read them, which is why they often don't make sense, (spell check, sence). Thirdly, if you feel like correcting my grammer and puntuation, they go right a head.
Daniel and Little Lulu
"Bubble Bubble toil and trouble":rollin:
I think that karma, the western interpretation or the true eastern explanation is not the same thing as magical thinking.
An example of magical thinking would be the hockey player's wife being told to wear the same shoes she wore to the "lucky' game where he had three goals.
Because religion in general was destroyed by communism in USSR, people grew in superstitions. Maria B wearing the white dress many times over the next 3 seasons that she won her world title in 99 is an example. She must've thought it was her 'lucky' dress and wearing it might get her a good outcome again.
If anyone read Katia's story, "My Sergei" she demonstrates many examples of superstitions, such as when a bird flies in the window, someone is going to die. Her Babushka was old and ailing and she did die that year. But she had cancer and the bird had nothing to do with that. Also, it rained on her wedding day, and that meant good luck. In hindsight she may now think rainy days bode bad luck. But the weather has nothing to do with how long a union will last, of course.
When people are lost at sea regarding what they believe, or are told "God does not exist" by the state, silly superstitions flourish. Including magical thinking, which is not the = of the karma theory, at all.
I believe that the charm her grandmother gave her says 'Wind'. It's been mentioned in several interviews during the earlier part of her career.
magical thinking - The conviction of the individual that his or her thoughts, words, and actions, may in some manner cause or prevent outcomes in a way that defies the normal laws of cause and effect.
That is the definition I linked to in my previous post, which I've now taken the pains to reproduce directly on the thread. As you can see, being religious or not has no bearings on the definition of magical thinking.
Karma, western or eastern, fits the definition of magical thinking completely. As I said, in either case, it's a belief that debts are owed and paid in luck and deeds, with some fantastic force doing the accounting. With the example of Michelle Kwan, she believes that merely thinking "fall!" while an opponent skates will make her lose. Gee, wouldn't it make more sense to observe other people in your discipline compete and hopefully learn something?
Magical thinking occurs within and without religions, only what I was so gently hinting at, is that religion is magical thinking. If the belief that a white dress or a necklace can ensure victory seems silly to you, then what about praying 5 times a day (Shalat)? Turning stoves off on Friday nights (the Sabbath)? Eating plain bread every Sunday (Communion)? All these are rituals intended to bring g-d, allah, god's blessings, good fortune in other words.
Good luck rituals have traditions and origins too, just like religion. Albeit, good luck rituals usually have personal origins, whereas religions usually have societal origins. For instance, "one time I wore mismatched socks and I found a quarter so now I always wear mismatched socks and bring a magnifying glass" is a micro version of "well Jesus and his gang got drunk before he made his holy human sacrifice so now we go drinking every Sunday."
Do Buddhists celebrate Christmas? I know Kwan does.
Aah, let me put on my sociology professor hat that I got from mail order.
Just as the western world has taken the eastern (mainly Buddhist/Hindu/Indian/Chinese) concept of Karma and transmuted it to better fit western society, the Christian concept of Christmas has been co-opted by the secular and non-Christian world at large. Christmas, or Winter Solstice was non-Christian to begin with, now Christmas is no longer Christian. In two places I'm familiar with, Hong Kong and Japan, Christmas is a time for gathering the immediate family to celebrate, looking at green/red/gold decorations, and pining for Santa's bag. In England, where the majority of the population refrains from church, a survey of the children found that most associate Christmas with Santa rather than Jesus.
So, celebrating Christmas no more denotes Christianity than believing in Karma denotes Buddhism.
Well, I don't know about karma or anything, but I just wanted to say that even though I'm not a huge fan of MK (I like her, just am not that crazy about ladies skating in general) I think her autobiography would be most interesting to read. (Talking of skater autobiographies, can anyone recommend any good ones?)
About the karma thing... Maybe she didn't mean what she said literally. Imagine that you are MK for a second in the 98 Olys. You have just finished your skate and Tara Lipinski is about to go on the ice. Deep down, wouldn't you want her to fall? I know I would. But at the same time, it would make me feel very bad to think that. So maybe she just wants to avoid that bad feeling and that's what she meant by karma.
GBM, I don't think people from the old USSR have a monopoly on superstitions. Many people, no matter how religious they are, are superstitious deep down. In fact, many religious dogmas are easier to process from a superstitious position.
Judaism is probably the most "abstract" of the Western religions. Yet even Judaism has much that is based on superstition: take for example the tradition of putting a mezuzah on the door. It is a religious tradition, since the mezuzah contains a quote from the Torah, yet I think many people who put it on their doors do it for superstitious reasons, that is to keep their homes safe from whatever evil. And, in case you are wondering, I do have mezuzahs on the doors of my home, and I honestly could not tell you if I do it for "religious" or "superstitious" reasons.
Exellent point! I'm not saying that Michelle wasn't sincere about the "karma" remark, but I don't think any of us can assume she meant karma in terms of its definition according to the Buddhist religion and not in the vernacular sense of "bad vibes." Besides, I've also heard Michelle say that she doesn't watch other skaters on the monitors or from the sidelines because she doesn't want to be tempted to think "Fall! Fall!" She laughed as she said it, and it struck me as if she was acknowledging, "Hey, I'm human! These things cross my mind! I can't help it!" It's just my opinion of course, but if she does feel that way, I find it endearing. But that's just me. Some people like their idols on a superhuman pedestal and that's fine. Whatever makes them happy. I would just ask those who do to respect the feelings of those of us who enjoy being fans of people who embrace their human foibles. Besides, what is a negative characteristic to one person is positive to another.
One last thing: Red Dog, I didn't see even the tiniest problem with your correction of the spelling of Buddhism. In fact, had I misspelled it, I would have appreciated your correction. If someone had spelled Catholic as "Cathalic," I'm sure someone would have corrected it once it was clear it was not a typo. I thought it was clear that your intentions were positive and not meant to embarrass anyone--and I don't think the person who misspelled Buddhism, Sk8m8, took it that way, though I can't speak for him.
Sk8m8, Fetal, and Red Dog: I thought you expressed your opinions on the questions that were asked by GBM very respectfully.
I was just trying to be helpful by pointing out the correct spelling of Buddhism...if I offended anyone I'm sorry. I didn't mean to intentionally put down anyone. Just clearing that up...
I understand about typos and I make (and see) them all the time. There is nothing wrong with that.
Rgirl, kin yu bleev it wuz me?
:rollin: My mistake, Granny! And my apologies to Sk8m8 for thinking it was him Anyway, I'm pretty sure that you, of all people, would be appreciative of being given the correct spelling:D
Gladd thet wuz kleered upp!
Actually GBM started it. Instead of looking it up, I copied what she wrote since I know she's a smarty.
Granny - There is never a problem with spelling because it is me. A terreible speller from day one, but I do well in Spanish (more phonetic).