Another edge question

Mathman · Jul 8, 2005

I was trying to construct the maximum-valued program under the CoP, and I ran into a problem. In a jump combination, the second jump must take off from the landing edge of the first jump.

Question 1: Does this mean that you can only do a loop or a toe-loop as the second jump?

Question 2: In a jump sequence you can do a hop or turn (no more than one revolution) between jumps. Could you do a double Axel as your second jump in a jump sequence?

Here's what I've got so far, for my eight allowed jumping passes.

4A-4T (22.5 points)
4Lz-4Lo (21.0 points)
2A-2A-2A SEQ (9.9 points -- only three combos/sequences are allowed, only one with three jumps.)
4A (13.0 points)
4Lz (11.0 points -- only two jumps may be repeated.)
4F (10.5)
4S (9.5 points)

Now I think I'm Zayaked out (only two triple/quad jumps may be repeated), so I can't think of anything more to do except throw in a hydroplane into a 'Tano double Axel for my eighth pass (3.3 points).

This gives me 97.4 base mark points on my jump elements. This goes up to 107.1 if I do them all in the last third of the program.

Can anyone beat that?

MM

boggartlaura · Jul 8, 2005

Mathman said:
I was trying to construct the maximum-valued program under the CoP, and I ran into a problem. In a jump combination, the second jump must take off from the landing edge of the first jump.

Question 1: Does this mean that you can only do a loop or a toe-loop as the second jump?

Question 2: In a jump sequence you can do a hop or turn (no more than one revolution) between jumps. Could you do a double Axel as your second jump in a jump sequence?

1) Generally, yes. There are skaters who can do jumps in both directions, so I suppose they could do an opposite-direction lutz, but they are very rare. Alternatively, you could do a jump the land on the other foot, like an one-foot Axel, but I don't know if those get credit under CoP.

2) You can do any jump as the second part of a sequence.

ETA: You'd be better off doing a 3A-3T-3Lo combination.

gkelly · Jul 8, 2005

Mathman said:
Question 2: In a jump sequence you can do a hop or turn (no more than one revolution) between jumps. Could you do a double Axel as your second jump in a jump sequence?

Yes, but . . . the latest rule updates added the following clarification:

Two or more Axel jumps Axel type jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-listed jump is not a jump sequence, but two separate jumps.

In other words, if you just did double axel, step forward from the landing into double axel, step forward again into another double axel, that would count as three separate elements, not as a three-jump sequence.

Double axel-mazurka jump-double axel would count as a sequence though, and the same if you added a second mazurka and third double axel.

There's also another little hop called a tap toe (like a mazurka, but without crossing the legs and often done from a back inside rather than back outside edge) that would also work here. Axel-tap toe-axel is pretty common at the pre-preliminary and preliminary levels.

It's not clear from this rule whether non-axel triple, step forward to double axel would count as a sequence. My guess is that it will be called as one this season if anyone does it, and then they'll rewrite the rule to clarify that that should be counted as two separate jumps too.

CDMM1991 · Jul 8, 2005

What about 3A 3A 3A? instead of 2A2A2A

Ptichka · Jul 8, 2005

CDMM1991 said:
What about 3A 3A 3A? instead of 2A2A2A

Zayak - you can't have more than 2 of the same type of a triple or quad jump, one of them in combo/ seq.

CDMM1991 · Jul 8, 2005

Oh okay Ptichka, how about 3a 3a 3l?

Ptichka · Jul 8, 2005

CDMM1991 said:
Oh okay Ptichka, how about 3a 3a 3l?

In MathMan's proposal, there is already both a 4A-4T combo, and a standalone 3A.

gkelly · Jul 8, 2005

Well, since he's got all those quads, and the repeated jumps are quads, he can do whatever triples he wants and won't be repeating any more jumps. Triples and quads are not the same jumps.

In theory, that is. There's no one alive today, certainly not Mathman himself, who could land all those different quads within the space of 4 1/2 minutes, with spins and steps in between. Someday, maybe. By which time the rules are sure to have changed.

Meanwhile, if you repeat quads and also do triples of the same takeoff, you risk getting doubly or triply penalized if the quads are underrotated and called as triples.

Ptichka · Jul 8, 2005

gkelly, are you sure? Do you mean that you can do a quad toe, and then 2 triple toes in combos (a very realistic scenario)?

gkelly · Jul 8, 2005

Yup. Look at the protocols from this year's Worlds. Chengjiang Li got credit for just that (well, one of the triple toes wasn't in combo). And Stephane Lambiel got credit for two quad toes and one triple toe.

Ptichka · Jul 9, 2005

Mathman said:
2A-2A-2A SEQ (9.9 points)

Actually, this is not correct. In a sequence, only the top two jumps count; also, the result is then multiplied by 0.8. Therefore, such sequence would only be worth 5.28

Ptichka · Jul 9, 2005

All right, here is my maximum. This takes into account what gkelly said about a triple and a quad counting as separate jumps

1. 4Fl + 4Lo + 4Toe (29.5)
2. 4A + 4Lo (23)
3. 4Lz + 4Toe (20)
4. 4A (13)
5. 4Lz (11)
6. 4Fl (10.5)
7. 4Sal (9.5)
8. 3A (7.5)

Total: 124 (136.4 if in last third)

boggartlaura · Jul 9, 2005

Ptichka said:
All right, here is my maximum. This takes into account what gkelly said about a triple and a quad counting as separate jumps

1. 4Fl + 4Lo + 4Toe (29.5)
2. 4A + 4Lo (23)
3. 4Lz + 4Toe (20)
4. 4A (13)
5. 4Lz (11)
6. 4Fl (10.5)
7. 4Sal (9.5)
8. 3A (7.5)

Total: 124 (136.4 if in last third)

You violated the Zayak rule - you repeated five jumps, and you can only repeat two.

Mathman · Jul 9, 2005

Ptichka said:
Actually, this is not correct. In a sequence, only the top two jumps count; also, the result is then multiplied by 0.8. Therefore, such sequence would only be worth 5.28

Can this be right? What if you did 3Lz+2T+2T. That's 6.0 for the Lutz + 1.3 for the first double toe, all times .8, for a total of 5.84 for the whole sequence.

This is less than if you did the triple Lutz by itself. :scratch:

MM

Ptichka · Jul 9, 2005

Mathman said:
Can this be right? What if you did 3Lz+2T+2T. That's 6.0 for the Lutz + 1.3 for the first double toe, all times .8, for a total of 5.84 for the whole sequence.

This is less than if you did the triple Lutz by itself. :scratch:

Yah, the first time I read the rules, I thought it was very clear that ISU wanted to all but outlaw sequences. Indeed, many (such as Irina) did tend to abuse them.

Ptichka · Jul 9, 2005

boggartlaura said:
You violated the Zayak rule - you repeated five jumps, and you can only repeat two.

You're correct. How about this:

1. 3Lz + 4Lo + 4Toe (25)
2. 4A + 3Lo (18)
3. 4Lz + 3To (15)
4. 4A (13)
5. 4Lz (11)
6. 4Fl (10.5)
7. 4Sal (9.5)
8. 3A (7.5)

Total: 109.5

BittyBug · Jul 9, 2005

Mathman said:
Can this be right? What if you did 3Lz+2T+2T. That's 6.0 for the Lutz + 1.3 for the first double toe, all times .8, for a total of 5.84 for the whole sequence.

This is less than if you did the triple Lutz by itself. :scratch:

MM

Your example is a combination, not a sequence. A sequence requires a step between two jumps (like your 2A, 2A, 2A example cited previously).

The rules for combinations are different - there is no 0.8 factor applied, and there is no stated limit on the number of jumps that can be included in a combination.

Ptichka · Jul 9, 2005

BittyBug said:
The rules for combinations are different - there is no 0.8 factor applied, and there is no stated limit on the number of jumps that can be included in a combination.

No more than 3 jumps can be included in a combo:

ISU said:
A jump combination may consist of the same or another single, double, triple or quadruple jump. There may be
up to three jump combinations or jump sequences in the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of
up to three (3) jumps, the other two up to two (2) jumps.

BittyBug · Jul 9, 2005

Ptichka said:
No more than 3 jumps can be included in a combo:

Thanks, Ptichka. I was unaware of that rule.

Mathman · Jul 10, 2005

Wow, I certainly didn't think that quads and triples counted as different jumps. The language of the ISU documents usually talks about "jumps of three or more revolutions," and seems to reserve the language "different jumps" for the different varieties without regard to number of revolutions.

But GKelly is certainly right in the examples cited: Lambiel did 4T-3T, 4T, and 2Lz-3T, and Li did 4T, 3A+3T, and 3T.

This gives a huge advantage to the quad-sters. As GKelly points out, if you can do a quad, then not only do you get the big points for that element, but also you can do as many triples later as you want. In contrast, Jeff Buttle was reduced to doing 2 double Axels in his last two jumping passes because he couldn't work in enough triples under the rules.

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