Another edge question

boggartlaura · Jul 11, 2005

Mathman said:
This gives a huge advantage to the quad-sters. As GKelly points out, if you can do a quad, then not only do you get the big points for that element, but also you can do as many triples later as you want. In contrast, Jeff Buttle was reduced to doing 2 double Axels in his last two jumping passes because he couldn't work in enough triples under the rules.

Mathman

And clearly Jeff suffered greatly because of it.

gkelly · Jul 11, 2005

This is clarified explicitly in the latest communication on singles and pairs changes:

"Repetitions:
Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump combination or in a jump sequence. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as two
different jumps."

(But that's how it had been applied all along since 1998-99 when quads were first included in the Zayak rule. Remember Goebel's 3-quad performance that had, IIRC, two quad sals and a triple sal, one quad toe and two triple toes?)

antmanb · Jul 11, 2005

gkelly said:
This is clarified explicitly in the latest communication on singles and pairs changes:

"Repetitions:
Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump combination or in a jump sequence. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as two
different jumps."

(But that's how it had been applied all along since 1998-99 when quads were first included in the Zayak rule. Remember Goebel's 3-quad performance that had, IIRC, two quad sals and a triple sal, one quad toe and two triple toes?)

I think it would be more interesting if they included a triple or quad of the same jump in the Zayak rule. It would make for more intersting combos if all the top men did 4toe/3toe, they have to start either doing loops on teh back of their triple axels or doing seuqences with 3Sal or 3Flips in them...so pluschenko would still do well then!!!! Also it would encourage the inclusion of different quads rather than repeating the 4toe.

Ant

Mathman · Jul 11, 2005

GKelly, could you do (lady)

3T-3T
3T
3Lo-3Lo
3Lo

? I have repeated only two jumps, the toe and the loop, and the repitition came in a combo.

Or does the first 3T-3T use up all of your allowed repitions for that jump?

MM

gkelly · Jul 11, 2005

You're only allowed to do the same jump twice. Here's the full text of the rule:

Repetitions:
Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump combination or in a jump sequence. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as two
different jumps. A repeated triple or quadruple solo jump, not included into a jump combination or jump sequence, will be considered as a part of a not successfully executed jump combination and counted as a jump combination with only one jump executed. If three (3) jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice. If a third repeated jump is executed in a combination or sequence, the entire combination or sequence will be
treated as an additional element and therefore not considered.

I have heard, however, that a downgraded quad will no longer count against the number of triples of the same takeoff allowed.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 11, 2005

Thanks gkelly for the rules. My dumb mind however, just doesn't grasp them that easily.

1. Of all the various triples and quads, only two of them can be repeated in combo. Is that 2 triples and 2 quads?; or a choice of 2 triples only or 2 quads only or 1 of each?

2. Triples or Quadruples with the same name will be considered two different jumps. I'm not sure what the 'same name' means. A quad lutz has the same name as a triple lutz? as a double lutz? as a lutz? I'm not so sure of that. It's the air turns that make them different jumps, and that's quite obvious.

3. I think the repeated solo jump not included in a combo or sequence must be assumed that the intent was for a combo and the successful jump gets credit? Is there a deduction for the missed other jump? otherwise I can see how to squeeze in another triiple lutz and get more points into the scores. Just make an attempt at a combo.

4.In a 3 jump combo or squence, any one of those jumps can not be repeated as a solo jump after the 3jumpcombo has been executed? am I correct?

5. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice. Isn't that arguable? I presume a triple toe solo, and in combo would be the 'twice'? Am I correct?

gkelly - the downgraded quad makes sense. does it apply to downgraded triples?

Joe

Ptichka · Jul 11, 2005

Joesitz said:
1. Of all the various triples and quads, only two of them can be repeated in combo. Is that 2 triples and 2 quads?; or a choice of 2 triples only or 2 quads only or 1 of each?

2 triples, 2 quads, or 1 of each

2. Triples or Quadruples with the same name will be considered two different jumps. I'm not sure what the 'same name' means. A quad lutz has the same name as a triple lutz? as a double lutz? as a lutz? I'm not so sure of that. It's the air turns that make them different jumps, and that's quite obvious.

Yes, all this means is that you can do 2 quad toe loops, and then 2 more triple toe loops and not violate the Zayak. Both Mathman and I were under a mistaken impression that you could only do 2 toe loops with three or more revolutions in the same program.

3. I think the repeated solo jump not included in a combo or sequence must be assumed that the intent was for a combo and the successful jump gets credit? Is there a deduction for the missed other jump? otherwise I can see how to squeeze in another triiple lutz and get more points into the scores. Just make an attempt at a combo.

Joe, don't you remember the discussions on this board when Sasha got credit for a jump "+combo" in one of her GP's in 2003. Unfortunately, as the rules stand today, it's up to the judges whether or not they give the same GoE for the "Lutz+combo" as they would for a lutz alone, or a lower one. There is not drop in base value.

4.In a 3 jump combo or squence, any one of those jumps can not be repeated as a solo jump after the 3jumpcombo has been executed? am I correct?

Close but not quite. Only 3 combos are allowed in a free skate. Say a skater already did 3 combos and a standalone triple lutz. He then does another triple lutz. Had he not already done 3 combos, he would have gotten credit for "lutz+combo"; however, since he has no more combos left, he gets no credit for the lutz at all.

Also (I'm note sure which part of the rules your question refered to), suppose a skater has already done two triple loops. He then does a 3F-3T-3Lo. Since this combo include an illegal 3d loop, our unlucky skater gets no credit for the whole combo at all.

The part that I don't like about the un-counted jumps is that they still count toward jump total. In other words the lutz in 1st example and the combo in 2nd would count toward the 8-jump total; if the skater ignores this, than his last jump won't count either.

5. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice. Isn't that arguable? I presume a triple toe solo, and in combo would be the 'twice'? Am I correct?

I don't see any contradiction here. Yes, the loophole in the rules is that you can do the same jump twice - once as a standalone and once with "+combo". However, you cannot do that jump a third time.

CDMM1991 · Jul 11, 2005

This is all so confusing. We are really going to have to know our stuff once the season rolls around. I hear that the Canadian sectionals this year are going to be ready for the new judging system, at least most of them so that will be a great oppurtunity for us younger skaters to get some competition with the new judging system. It should be nice to know exactly what we have to work on.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 11, 2005

Thanks for the clarification, Ptichka - here is the rule for my question 4 which I may have paraphrasedwrongly:

If three (3) jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered.

Any comment on the above?

Joe, don't you remember the discussions on this board when Sasha got credit for a jump "+combo" in one of her GP's in 2003. Unfortunately, as the rules stand today, it's up to the judges whether or not they give the same GoE for the "Lutz+combo" as they would for a lutz alone, or a lower one. There is not drop in base value

I do kind of remember that. She did a lutz then an attempted lutz/toe; landed the lutz weakly and could not do the toe. She got full credit for the lutz because it was an attempted combo avoiding the Zayak rule.

The way I see this combo business, is that it is not judged as a combo but as an ok version of two jumps in a row. One will get full base scores for either one that is completed. The one that is not completed will not be penalized. Am I correct? That's my point. Easy way to get credit for an extra solo jump albeit base score but still a score!

Joe

Ptichka · Jul 12, 2005

Joesitz said:
If three (3) jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered.

As I've said above:
Only 3 combos are allowed in a free skate. Say a skater already did 3 combos and a standalone triple lutz. He then does another triple lutz. Had he not already done 3 combos, he would have gotten credit for "lutz+combo"; however, since he has no more combos left, he gets no credit for the lutz at all.

Mathman · Jul 12, 2005

gkelly said:
I have heard, however, that a downgraded quad will no longer count against the number of triples of the same takeoff allowed.

Hmmm. The slippery slope of "what I intended to do, but didn't." Does this mean that you could do 4 triple toes (2 in combinations) and claim that two of them were failed quad attempts?

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 12, 2005

Thanks Ptichka - My other problem with combos:

A combo in itself as such is not an element with a base score. Am I correct?

It is a 2 or 3 part series of jumps which are graded on the base scores of the individual jumps contained therein. Am I correct?

So if one of those jumps in the series is not successful say, it popped, it is not given any credit, but the successful jump does get full base score. am I correct?

Further the combo itself although not complete is not penalized for an incomplete combo. Am I correct.

We assume there was an attempt to do a combo even though the skater left out the second jump. Am I correct?

In the Sasha case, a solo lutz, a lutz/toe combo, a lutz/failed loop combo. She gets credit for 3 lutzes because there was an attempt. am I correct?

Joe :scratch:

antmanb · Jul 12, 2005

Mathman said:
Hmmm. The slippery slope of "what I intended to do, but didn't." Does this mean that you could do 4 triple toes (2 in combinations) and claim that two of them were failed quad attempts?

I would doubt it because two clean 3T/3T combos would be just that, i took the comment to mean that if a skater stands up a quad toe attempt that makes three and half revs - for the purposes of counting "different" jumps it will not count as a 3T.

For example, a skater opens with a quad toe/triple toe and underotates the quad by half a turn but stands it and lands the triple after it, later in the program the skater executes a clean 3A/3T. What we have seen this past season is the caller calling the 4T/3T as a 3T/3T (the double penalty for not only downgrading what was clearly an intended quad jump and getting -GOEs for the bad landing), the skater then later on could not get credit for the triple toe after the Axel because it is in violation of the Zayak rule becasue the caller called the quad a triple by aplpying the rules.

I agree that the filed qud should not count as a triple for the Zayak rule.

Ant

BittyBug · Jul 12, 2005

Joesitz said:
A combo in itself as such is not an element with a base score. Am I correct?

It is a 2 or 3 part series of jumps which are graded on the base scores of the individual jumps contained therein. Am I correct?

Yes, except for the word "series," since that has it's own meaning. A combination is a number of jumps done successively without connecting steps (with steps including half jumps). A series is a number of jumps done successively with connecting steps. The value of a series is the sum of the individual jumps multiplied by 0.8.

Joesitz said:
So if one of those jumps in the series is not successful say, it popped, it is not given any credit, but the successful jump does get full base score. am I correct?

No - the skater would still receive credit for the popped jump, but at a reduced base value based on the number of revolutions completed.

Joesitz said:
Further the combo itself although not complete is not penalized for an incomplete combo. Am I correct.

See above.

Joesitz said:
We assume there was an attempt to do a combo even though the skater left out the second jump. Am I correct?

Only if the skater has not already completed the maximum number of combos.

Joesitz said:
In the Sasha case, a solo lutz, a lutz/toe combo, a lutz/failed loop combo. She gets credit for 3 lutzes because there was an attempt. am I correct?

No. First of all, this is a bad example because no skater would knowingly plan to repeat a jump 3 times since it's a violation of the Zayak rule. As such, there would be no credit for the 3rd jump element because of that.

emma · Jul 12, 2005

BittyBug said:
Yes, except for the word "series," since that has it's own meaning. A combination is a number of jumps done successively without connecting steps (with steps including half jumps). A series is a number of jumps done successively with connecting steps. The value of a series is the sum of the individual jumps multiplied by 0.8.

So, is there a factor that is multiplied for a combination...that is, the value of a combination is the sum of the individual jumbps multiplied by xx? Thanks...if this was already answered i'm sorry, it's just a little hard to keep up.

Also, Joe asked: In the Sasha case, a solo lutz, a lutz/toe combo, a lutz/failed loop combo. She gets credit for 3 lutzes because there was an attempt. am I correct?

Isn't this still a violation since there are three lutz's (I'm assuming they are all triples here; if say, the last one was a double lutz plus intended triple loop then I would see it as legal as i understand this thread)?

antmanb · Jul 12, 2005

emma said:
So, is there a factor that is multiplied for a combination...that is, the value of a combination is the sum of the individual jumbps multiplied by xx? Thanks...if this was already answered i'm sorry, it's just a little hard to keep up.
QUOTE]

Not quite - for a combination (i.e two or three jumps where the landing edge of the first jump is the take off edge of the second and the landing edge of the second is the take off edge of the third) the total point value is the sum of the invidivdual jumps, full stop.

For a series (two jump which have steps turns hops including half loop and single revolution jumps, but not allowing crossovers or more thana full revoluion on the ice) the two main jumps will be the sum of those two jumps multiplied by 0.8.

The problem i have with this (as do a lot of others) is that it makes no sense for a skater to include a jump series because you can get more points for doing the two jumps in isolation.

Also everyone knows its more difficult to do a combination jump than it is to do those same jumps in isolation therefore to my mind there should be a multiplying factor to combinations. Also 2/3 combinations should get more credit than 3/2 combinations. 3 jump combinations are harder still than 2 jump combinations.

While a series might not as difficult as a combination, a series is still more diffcult than the two jumps in isolation. Also by desregarding the middle hop or jump of a series it means that no-one will wastes their energy to do series like eg. Urmanov used to do with two triple jumps at either end of the series and all manner of single and double jumps in the middle.

The CoP has a long way to go to capture eveything i think.

Ant

Doggygirl · Jul 12, 2005

antmanb said:
emma said:

So, is there a factor that is multiplied for a combination...that is, the value of a combination is the sum of the individual jumbps multiplied by xx? Thanks...if this was already answered i'm sorry, it's just a little hard to keep up.
QUOTE]

Not quite - for a combination (i.e two or three jumps where the landing edge of the first jump is the take off edge of the second and the landing edge of the second is the take off edge of the third) the total point value is the sum of the invidivdual jumps, full stop.

For a series (two jump which have steps turns hops including half loop and single revolution jumps, but not allowing crossovers or more thana full revoluion on the ice) the two main jumps will be the sum of those two jumps multiplied by 0.8.

The problem i have with this (as do a lot of others) is that it makes no sense for a skater to include a jump series because you can get more points for doing the two jumps in isolation.

Also everyone knows its more difficult to do a combination jump than it is to do those same jumps in isolation therefore to my mind there should be a multiplying factor to combinations. Also 2/3 combinations should get more credit than 3/2 combinations. 3 jump combinations are harder still than 2 jump combinations.

While a series might not as difficult as a combination, a series is still more diffcult than the two jumps in isolation. Also by desregarding the middle hop or jump of a series it means that no-one will wastes their energy to do series like eg. Urmanov used to do with two triple jumps at either end of the series and all manner of single and double jumps in the middle.

The CoP has a long way to go to capture eveything i think.

Ant

Click to expand...

ITA with you that logically, cobos should have multipliers. I think where this "works out in the end" is that by including combos / sequences, a skater can include more jumps in the overall program yielding higher TES points since the number of jump passes are limited.

DG

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 12, 2005

BittyBug said:
Yes, except for the word "series," since that has it's own meaning. A combination is a number of jumps done successively without connecting steps (with steps including half jumps). A series is a number of jumps done successively with connecting steps. The value of a series is the sum of the individual jumps multiplied by 0.8.

Ah! I knew I would be misunderstood with that word 'series' What I read is that a combination (a group of jumps done consecutively) has no value except for the alloted base scores for each of those jumps contained therein. Given the rules: A skater who has already been scored for solo triple lutz and solo triple toe, goes to attempt a triple lutz/triple toe in combination. Unfortunately, the triple lutz was landed poorly and prevented the skater from doing the triple toe. In reality the skater has done another solo lutz albeit poorly and absolutely no triple toe. How is that scored? Will the Tech Asst know it was an attempt.
_____________________________________________________________

Interesting your point on 'series' that it is basically the same scoring as if it were a combo but and added factor of .08. What makes a series so difficult? or is for esthetic reasons?

No. First of all, this is a bad example because no skater would knowingly plan to repeat a jump 3 times since it's a violation of the Zayak rule. As such, there would be no credit for the 3rd jump element because of that.

Sorry about the bad example, but it did happen, and we had many discussions on it back then. An attempted lutz/toe (lutz landed poorly and the toe was abandoned. Later, a solo lutz. What we got was two solo lutz's. In order to make it valid we have to agree that one of them was part of an attempted combo. If so, then that is a way to get more points by doing an extra lutz and leaving out another jump to make the combo. Remember, incomplete combos are not penalized - only the jumps within, and in that example, there was no jump to penalize.

Joe

antmanb · Jul 12, 2005

Doggygirl said:
antmanb said:

ITA with you that logically, cobos should have multipliers. I think where this "works out in the end" is that by including combos / sequences, a skater can include more jumps in the overall program yielding higher TES points since the number of jump passes are limited.

DG

Click to expand...

You're absolutely right...after i wrote the first comment i sat asking myself why on earth did sasha include the triple-triple sequence for worlds when the two triples on their own would get a greater score and then i answered my own question...because she had run out of jumping passes to do the two separately therefore its better to complete a 3/3 sequence with the 0.8 multiplyer than to only do one of the triples or fall on one or other in a 3/3 combo.

My other complaint is that a one foot axel is much more diffuclt than a regular single axel so it should be given greater points and not just as a plus GOE enhancer to the take off of the next jump. Also a whalley (am i spelling that right)? is more difficult than any of the other single jumps. The skaters at my rink that i see landing iffy scratchy whalley's are all landing comfortable doubles up through flip and lutz which suggests to me its at least as hard as a lower level double if not more.

Ant

antmanb · Jul 12, 2005

Joesitz said:
Ah! I knew I would be misunderstood with that word 'series' What I read is that a combination (a group of jumps done consecutively) has no value except for the alloted base scores for each of those jumps contained therein. Given the rules: A skater who has already been scored for solo triple lutz and solo triple toe, goes to attempt a triple lutz/triple toe in combination. Unfortunately, the triple lutz was landed poorly and prevented the skater from doing the triple toe. In reality the skater has done another solo lutz albeit poorly and absolutely no triple toe. How is that scored? Will the Tech Asst know it was an attempt.

I guess the crib sheet the caller has will have the information down as to whether a combination is expected in the first instance. IF at the end of the performance only two combinations have been executed then the second triple that would have been in violation of the Zayak rule will be given the benefit of the doubt and the "+COMBO" assigned to it.

_____________________________________________________________

Joesitz said:
Interesting your point on 'series' that it is basically the same scoring as if it were a combo but and added factor of .08. What makes a series so difficult? or is for esthetic reasons?

The 0.8 for a series is not a point value that is added - it is literally a multiplyer to the jump so that it devalues the base marks of the two jumps. e.g. a double axel/half loop/triple salchow is (3.3 + 4.5) x 0.8 = 6.25 as opposed to the 7.8 points the twp jumps would have in isolation or if the sequence was marked the same as a combination.

Ant

Another edge question

boggartlaura

gkelly

antmanb

Mathman

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

Ptichka

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CDMM1991

Joesitz (RIP)

Ptichka

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Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

BittyBug

emma

antmanb

Doggygirl

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

antmanb

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