La Kwan? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

La Kwan?

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mathman444

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Of course, I think a lot of people's enjoyment of a skater comes from their perception of the skater's personality. And real or imagined, again, so what? If people want to believe that someone posesses idealized personality characteristics and it increases their enjoyment of the skater, I think it's a good thing...It's not reality (as long as the subject came up), but then I don't think admiration of skaters, athletes, performers, or whatever celebrities has much to do with reality. Most people WANT the idealized version. It makes most people happy to believe that someone is not only a gorgeous skater (singer, dancer, actor, whatever) but also an exceptionally beautiful person on the inside.[/quote]

You nailed it, Rgirl. Who cares about reality when Middle Earth is so full of wonder?

Mathman
 
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lilicedancer

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

I think that a person's skating and their life/personality etc. should remain separate. For instance I really admire Sasha Cohen's skating and love to watch her, but as a person... I have been on sessions with her on several occasions, and she IS a diva. I don't mean that in a good way either. Then there are skaters like Tim Goebel, who I do not like to watch but who I admire very much as a person, he's such a nice guy! And of course there are skaters like Paul Wylie and Scott Hamilton who I admire as skaters and as people.
 
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GBMalwayz

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

alas, rgirl I am tired so i just read the first line or two of your rpost;) but I defend Sarah in doing her duty by her fans. And the info was no 100th hand. A woman who went to the COI show was there, heard it and reported it. I remember it generated a LONG discussion as the time.

As far as Shine 2002, I am confused as I recently visited Michelle Yawn forum (which has all of 6 members :rollin: )
But I thought I've seen you a couple of boards less than impressed with Kwan. A lot of people think Michelle is overrated and that it's unfair but seem to be afraid to post it.

Afraid of others posters attacking. When kwanophiles attack!
I've seen it hundreds of times, though mainly on MKF.

It's amazing the stuff I've seen posted here, and no one cares, hardly no one, but if you think Kwan is a diva (aren't they all? ) that gets a response.

Michelle is a quiet Diva. Certainly not the biggest in FS. We'd have to have them all take the MMPI and to figure out the biggest ego. Is that ok, rgirl?

Middle earth Mathman? So scientists read sci-fi? I am however a life long Star Trek fan. I guess that is sci-fi, though from another era.
 
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LAVENDER

Guest
I've posted here once and I do like the site but...

I mainly lurk but I want to say something about Michelle not signing autographs. It turns out that Michelle wasn't feeling well that day. One of the fans heard her say that her stomach was bothering her and she also heard Sarah's comment. Sarah didn't know Michelle was sick and we never really know why someone opts to not sign autographs on a particular day. It's disappointing but it happens.

Michelle has been known to accomodate fans with autographs but I think she is allowed to be sick.
 
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SHINE2002

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

Hi GBM,
"But I thought I've seen you a couple of boards less than impressed with Kwan. A lot of people think Michelle is overrated and that it's unfair but seem to be afraid to post it."

Eh...I'm not quite sure what you mean there. :|
 
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Skate Sandee

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

Well I haven't read the whole thread (except to see that it has gone off somewhere about divas and such). But in reference to the original comment, isn't "La" simply the feminine prounoun in French? (I'm reaching WAY back into my memories of high school French and remembering "La" was the feminine and "Le" was the masculine).

So isn't "La Kwan" simply the equivalent of "Ms. Kwan"?
 
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Skate Sandee

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

Oh wait - you weren't referring to newspapers in France. You were referring to posters that call her La Kwan.


Nevermind.

As for the "diva" thing = I always equate it with longevity and a certain up-front personality. I wouldn't call Kwan a diva. I wouldn't call Sasha a diva either (maybe a "divette"?). When I think "diva" in skating, I always think of Tarasova and her fur coats for some reason :)
 
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sloopie

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

Thank you, altamina, for that article on Kathleen Battle. I was wondering recently what had become of her. Another woman with enormous talent who had no concept of common courtesy or acceptable behavior. I remember when she was fired from the Met - very sad, because I adore her voice, but understandable from what I've read about her behavior. I've heard comments that men get away with this sort of thing all the time, and they're called "perfectionistic" or "demanding", but when a woman does it, she's a @#%$ (or, the polite alternative, a diva). Maybe.

I think the idea of diva-dom has to do with self-esteem versus egotism. It's one thing to know you can do something well, and take pride in that, want to do your best and improve all the time - such as, Sasha saying she wants to be number one - perfectly realistic goal, and she tied it in to hard work, not to being handed success on a golden platter because she'd had some success already. She's put in the work to make herself #1 - at least I think so - and has said publicly when she falls that she has to work harder on consistency. It's interesting there's been no more talk of a quad from her (at least that I've heard), so maybe she reconsidered that as not furthering her primary goal. I see nothing wrong with anything she's said publicly.

Privately, ah, that's another matter. Michelle might go home and tell her mom that Sasha (or Tara or Irina) is a #%^(# (supply your own expletive) but publicly she shows a competitive streak that isn't vindictive. Not signing autographs after a show - well, that could be her manager's decision, or maybe she was very tired or in a bad mood. If it isn't done often, I don't see anything wrong with it.

I think Katarina Witt has been unfairly dubbed a diva because of her competitive streak. She isn't exactly the demure ice princess, she uses her sexuality as someone else might use a split spiral or a triple axel. Why not, it's an asset. I've never seen her say anything publicly that sounded conceited or too-good-for-you. When she went back to the Olympics, she knew she wasn't going to win anything, and was very up-front about it. What's diva about that?

Poor Nancy Kerrigan couldn't get the public vs. private stuff straight. I'm sure her nightmare is a live microphone she isn't aware of. I've heard her say some things publicly - in front of cameras she knew were live - that weren't terribly nice (the worst was criticizing some "pseudo competition" by saying it didn't matter who won because they all got appearance fees anyway). I don't know if she was naive, or uncoached, or just felt honesty was the best policy - but I doubt she's any worse than anyone else in the top levels, but she paid dearly for 3 or 4 stupid comments.

Nicole Bobek has made some very stupid choices in her eligible career, and that's too bad, because she has enormous talent, too. I think she just didn't understand what the fuss was about. And maybe wasn't willing to put in the work to fulfill her potential. That's her choice. I wish she'd made a different choice, because she could've been stupendous. But it's her life, and she has a right to decide what's more important to her, having fun or training.

Athletic and artistic talent don't always go with political savvy, or common sense.
 
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Ogre Mage

Guest
Divas

I think the biggest ice diva of all was ice dancer Pasha Grishuk. The stories I heard about her!

She supposedly changed her name from Oksana to Pasha so she wouldn't be confused with Oksana Baiul, who she reportedly described as a "fat, over the hill cow." In 1998 she joked about looking for a boyfriend at the Olympics and suggested that all the male Olympics medalists should get in line so she could check them out. "But only the gold medalists," she said. I think her former parter, Platov, left her because he couldn't take it anymore.

Katarina was definitely a diva, too, though I never heard her say anything about anyone else which was deliberately insulting. With her it was more what she did rather than what she said, like improvising to other skaters music during pratice time. Very diva-ish. I read on several boards that Roz Sumners used to make some pretty nasty comments about her competitors back in her amateur days. Given the (lack of) finesse with her skating commentary work, I can believe it.
 
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Grgranny

Guest
Re: Divas

Oh Ogre, how could we forget. Pasha was the biggest diva of them all. :lol:
 
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lilicedancer

Guest
Re: Divas

Pasha still is a diva, she lives in Southern CA now too. She recently had a baby, and she coaches quite a bit. The problem with this thread is that everybody has a different definition of diva. To me a diva is a negative thing, it's someone who's conceited or self-absorbed, or who acts like success has spoiled them. I know to some people diva means something positive, so no one can agree on who the divas are.
 
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GBMalwayz

Guest
re Shine

Hi Shine2002, it wasn't the Yawnforum, sorry, it was another board, I think, the uncensoredskating chat2 or something like that. Gee, that's a definitely uncensored place.

At least I spelled definitely right this time Granny!:)
 
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eltamina

Guest
Divas on Ice

GBM, I think maybe we have different definitions of what is a diva.

I looked it up.

Etymology: Italian, literally, goddess, from Latin, feminine of divus divine,

If we stick with this definition then most of the top lady skaters are divas, because they skate divinely. To me diva means an opera singer (male or female) who is extremely talented, arrogant, and entitled, e.g. Pavarotti, Battle, and Callas.

I can agree with you that Yuka is a diva because she skates divinely. She does not come across as arrogant, or entitled. LOL, she said when the skates are off; she is just a house wife trying to do laundry.

I love Sarah Hughes; I know she is not perfect. I know about some of her ways of dealing with frustration. I will give her a few get out of “foot n mouth” free card.

I don’t know Michelle had stomach ache that night, but I will give her a few get out of “signing autograph” free cards. That girl endured a serious death threat when she was 15, and FBI was involved. I think she should be careful about people approaching her; some may not be fans with good intention.

Whether Michelle truly believes that she is a skating goddess or not, no one knows. We haven’t seen any reports about MK behaving in an entitled way.

Red Dog, I told the second hand UCLA story because I think MK has a sense of humor, and is able to laugh at herself. ITA, she was tired of answering the same question 10000 times. She could choose to walk away, or tell those people to buzz off, but she dealt with it in a humorous way.
 
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GBMalwayz

Guest
Re: Divas on Ice

Elta, you are right, they are just humans, and if they ever act divaish in the negative sense, its probably because of atta lot of insanely involved fans. Michelle couldn't fly to HongKong without one of her fans on board from MKforum wanting to give her a ring of gold or some such thing.

You are kind to want to give them extra cards. I think that Yuka is very Japanese. She has been taught not to gloat or brag. I see the most humility in Yuka, Kristi, Luchen, Michelle, Fumie and others with the cultural background.

I still believe they are divas in the true sense of the word which obviously comes from the divine. I had no idea Kathleen Battle was such a DIVA, as you know my opera education has been sorely lacking. I think Michelle's clue to her self thought has been her telling us a few years ago, she has always wanted to be a "legend" in FS. Watching the Divas show today made me just realize that Ice Princess is a real phenomenon. I think that the FS divas for the most part are better role models than celebrities/actors/pop singers because they keep their lives such a secret. They all try to do that.

I never heard that Michelle had death threats at 15. What are the details. Was this published some where or is it insider knowledge?

Thanks for the definition. I wonder who is considered the biggest diva in opera in terms of its negative connotations? How does Maria Callas rate? All I know of her was her life long affair with Onassis.
 
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eltamina

Guest
Death Threat

It was mentioned in some TV fluff piece and the book by Epstein

Born to Skate (out of print)

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...ce&s=books

I think it was the 95 - 96 sseason. The death threat was from a French guy. Interestingly, GPF was in France that year, and she won.
 
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heyang

Guest
Divas in the negative

There definitely needs to be a consistent definition of Diva.

I believe Elta gave the kind definitions. Unfortunatley, the word diva has attained negative status. Many think of someone who feels she is entitled to act as she pleases without regard for others and make demands of others. This could mean stocking a particular brand of water and throwing tantrums if the correct brand is not available. It could mean refusing to share a dressing room or bringing a huge entourage of hanger's-on who cause more trouble than they are worth.

I can think of some skaters who have diva-ish qualities (i.e. Pasha comes to mind), but haven't heard of any outright negative divas.
 
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Jimmy Hoffa 2

Guest
Re: Divas in the negative

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Michelle gets special treatment on the COI tour. Did you hear the story of one poster on this or some website last year? Michelle didn't want to sign autographs, and was thus led off by COI security. Sarah was annoyed and said out loud as she signed a zillion, "It must be nice to be someone important around here." and she was of course by then the owner of Oly Gold.[/quote]
I remember that incident. It was one or two shows after Hughes herself bypassed autographs to be "led off by COI security" -- while Kwan hung around and signed.

I also read that report. The poster said that Kwan was backstage and told someone that she was sick. The poster asked Kwan for her autograph but Kwan was led away before she signed anything, then Hughes made the comment.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A lot of people think Michelle is overrated and that it's unfair but seem to be afraid to post it.

Afraid of others posters attacking. When kwanophiles attack!
I've seen it hundreds of times, though mainly on MKF.[/quote]
Well, yeah, if you go to a fan board for a skater and start putting her down, you're not going to get the nicest response. That doesn't take much to figure that one out.
 
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FetalAttraction

Guest
Divvy up the diva

Opera fans, stop insisting the word diva is exclusive to opera singers. One of you went as far as to say while it only applies to opera singers, it can apply to males, too. That's clearly not the "traditional definition" either. Words and their meanings evolve through popular usage, so get with the times. The word "diva" has long since ceased to describe only opera singers. The point of language is to communicate using a pool of shared symbols. And diva, in this linguistic pool, symbolizes a performer, usually female, who, while talented, has an arrogant attitude.

Celebrities are the Olympian gods of our age. We ascribe superhuman qualities and antics to them, both positive and negative. We tell tales of their wild exploits that fire up our imagination. I'm sure many celebrities, especially the ones in skating, have exceptional talents and temperaments. Fame and fortune is not something one merely attains by aspiration alone. But mostly, celebrities are just average people with publicists.

For skaters and other celebrities, I judge them like I would anybody else I'm not personally familiar with. I see them interact with people under a very glaring public eye, if they behave nicely, I'll assume they're nice. I don't have any reason to suspect they lead some sordid double life, so I won't. As far as I can see, Michelle and Sarah are perfectly nice, Sasha's a bit shy and guarded, Irina's charming and funny, and so on.
 
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4dogknight

Guest
Re: Prima Donna

According to the on-line Merriam-Webster Dictionary the definition for the word <em>diva</em> is as follows:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>One entry found for diva.

Main Entry: di•va
Pronunciation: 'dE-v&
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural divas or di•ve /-(") vA/
Etymology: Italian, literally, goddess, from Latin, feminine of divus divine, god -- more at DEITY
Date: 1883
: PRIMA DONNA 1[/quote]

However, if you click on <em>PRIMA DONNA</em>, the following is displayed and definition #2 is closer to the discussion and view points on this thread (except for Kathleen Battle who, as described, fits #1 and #2):

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>One entry found for prima donna.

Main Entry: pri•ma don•na
Pronunciation: "pri-m&-'dä-n&, "prE-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural prima donnas
Etymology: Italian, literally, first lady
Date: 1782
1 : a principal female singer in an opera or concert organization
2 : an extremely sensitive, vain, or undisciplined person[/quote]

Of course just knowing the definition will not change any one’s mind about a certain skater or another. It’s just one our human frailties – seeing only what we want to see.
And conveying verbally what we see is the subject of this thread; it is not about the religious aspect of any skater’s personality. Of course Fetal will say I’m wrong and that’s its prerogative isn’t it?

We all carry a lot of baggage and that baggage colors what we see/hear. So with that in mind, aren’t our opinions a product of not only what we see/hear but also what we bring to the table in order to process what we see/hear?

I know that certain colors, sound frequencies, note combinations, skeletal movements bring me pleasure and make me feel good about not only what I see and hear but also about the media delivering the pleasure. By close approximation, I feel better about my self.
If I choose to convey verbally the pleasure I feel, am I wrong – no. But if I promote those media that pleasures me to the exclusion of anything or any one else – then I am wrong.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Prima Donna

I don't care what the etymology of the word diva is.

In my humble opinion, there was only one Diva and that was La Callas. Maybe Tetrazzini and Melba before my time.

For figure skating there is the one and only La Kwan. She'll generate adoration and loathing not unlike Callas but I wouldn't call her or any figure skater a diva.

I could say Le Button, but I won't and he really is the one and only. In addition to superlative skating of his time, he has claimed verbiage that no one can approach. (The Russian boys just don't do it for me. They are not terribly exciting off the ice.)

Joe
 
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