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Thread: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

  1. #16
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!


    But is the leg behind her butt or sticking out to the right? If you studied ballet, you'd know where that leg should be. Check out Cohen, she has an arabasque on ice.

    Joe

  2. #17
    rgirl181
    Guest

    Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!


    Rgal,
    Putting my master's degree to some use:lol: : Flexibility is specific. That is, someone can have a very flexible spine for arching and holding her leg up, ie, Irina and Beillmann and layback spins, but holding up the leg in a high arabesque position requires a different kind of flexibility plus strength. Irina's hips are tight when extended to the back and I think this is the problem. But all skaters have their flexibility limitations--okay, Sasha has very few:lol: --but some are more noticeable. Michelle can get her leg high in back, but she doesn't have the flexibility for a classic layback (ie, with the free leg high and turned out, like Sasha, Sarah, and Angela).

    As for the "correct" arabesque position: Yes, Irina's free leg is somewhat out to the side (abducted), but if you watch any skater in the "arabesque" spiral position with a deep outside edge, the free leg always abducts, even Sasha's. It helps the skater maintain balance. Also, looking at photos can be deceptive. The position of the hips/legs can change depending on where the skater is in the spiral sequence. If they are "rounding the bend" or going into the deepest part of the edge, they make adjustments for speed and balance. That's why it's hard to compare ballet and skating positions. A ballerina in an arabesque is not traveling along the ice on a narrow blade and trying for a lot of inside or outside lean on the edge. Anyway, like Joe said, the photo is to show the phenomenal edge quality. Line as never been Irina's strong point and nobody is saying it is. One of Sasha's strengths is her line, no doubt about that (althought now that I say it, I'm sure somebody will disagree:lol: ). Anyway, here are two links to some okay but not great examples of spirals (Google kind of sucks with skating examples, but it's fast!):

    images.google.com/images?...gle+Search
    images.google.com/images?...8&filter=0

    On the second link, there are two photos of Michelle's spiral. On those you can see the abducted leg (leg out to the side) as well. I couldn't find photos that show Sasha and Sarah's spirals from an angle that shows the abducted leg, but I have it on tape. Anyway, like I said, photos can be deceptive and for me, a slightly abducted free leg is not a problem. Even a grossly abducted free leg is not a problem for me if the skater is going for a killer edge:D
    Rgirl

  3. #18
    Excidra2001
    Guest

    Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!


    That's why Irina is awarded big points when it comes to spirals. Sasha's spiral is lovely to watch, but she doens't achieve the deep edges Irina does. The only other skater who does achieve those deep edges on their spirals, is Michelle kwan.

  4. #19
    Linny
    Guest

    Did scoring change


    Did scoring change while I wasn't looking? Are skaters now awarded points for individual movements?

    If a judge likes a skater's spiral or layback or axle or whatever, how would we know? Don't they just get one score for technical and one score for presentation, and isn't that score a comparison score against the other skaters and not a universal score as in "these criteria equal 6.0"?

    Linny


  5. #20
    rgirl181
    Guest

    Re: Scoring


    Skaters of course get one score for tech and one for presentation, but each score is based on the judge's assessment of various individual elements and their cumulative effect in creating the whole. I don't know that that's anywhere in the USFSA judging protocols, but that's how I understand it. I think people were just using phrases like "This is why Irina gets high scores" as a figure of speech, not a direct example of judging. A skater who has great speed and deep edges throughout her program is going to have a higher base mark than one who is slow and has shallow edges. However, the slower, more shallow-edged skater might have better line than the fast, deep-edged skater. It all goes into the mix. At least, we think it does, since nobody really knows what goes on in judging:lol:

    I know for myself, the photo gave me the opportunity to share with others one aspect of what I've seen watching Irina skate live. Great lean doesn't show up very well on TV, nor do a lot of things, but when you see it live and you viscerally feel the excitement it generates, you say to yourself, "Ah! This is what the judges are so impressed with!" because you are so impressed yourself. By "this" I don't just mean the edges; I mean the speed, ice coverage, edge quality, movement quality, jumps, footwork, connection to the audience, everything. But in the case of this photo, Irina's phenomenal edge quality was highlighted.
    Rgirl

  6. #21
    Excidra2001
    Guest

    Re: Scoring


    Linny,

    No skaters are not awarded points for individual movements, I was just using the "she is awarded big points" to explain my point.
    A lot of people wonder why Irina still manages to score high on the tech side, even though she sometimes completes less jumps then her competitiors.
    The tech does not revolve around the jumps, part of it does. But ice-coverage, difficulty of spirals, difficulty of spins, difficulty of footwork and other things all make up the technical side.






  7. #22
    Linny
    Guest

    Tech side


    Methinks that the SIZE of the jumps is equally as important as the number and variety of jumps. Of course, like everyone else, I'm guessing... since the judges don't have to justify their marks one whit.

    At any rate, I've noticed that Vica hasn't been extremely consistent through the years, but still seems to rate high marks. And Irina's jumps are also among the largest in terms of height and ice coverage... aren't they?

    I'm not certain that Irina's spirals are specifically earmarked by the judges as justification for high marks. Her speed and edging, certainly, but not necessarily the spirals.

    But, of course, how would we know?

    Linny


  8. #23
    bunghodog
    Guest

    Re: Scoring


    I think that Irina's spiral is nice, honestly, Sasha's spiral is not attractive or pleasant to watch, it looks funny.

  9. #24
    rgirl181
    Guest

    Re: Sasha's "funny" spiral


    Bunghodog,
    Are you the person who wrote on MKF that you thought Sasha's leg on her spiral was too high? That it looked "unnatural"? If not, I'm curious: What looks funny about Sasha's spiral to you? Why is it unpleasant and unattractive to watch? To each his own, of course; I'm just curious about what it is about Cohen's spiral you don't like. Whose spiral do you like and why? No diss; just curious.
    Rgirl

  10. #25
    bunghodog
    Guest

    Re: Sasha's "funny" spiral


    I might of posted that, I dont remember what I said but have read that many times over there, just doesen't flow, but that is just me, I just think it is preference, there are many people who think she has the best spiral ever, and I respect there opinion, my favorite spiral she does is in her long program, before she goes into her triple loop, My favorite spiral is Michelle's, I like ap and jenny kirks also and like I said I like Irina's spiral, alot of people diss her spiral, but it actually is a good one except for her leg position.

  11. #26
    WindSpirit5
    Guest

    Re: Sasha's "funny" spiral


    Another nice pic of Irina's spiral:
    <a href="http://ca.yimg.com/i/ca/reuters/20020323/i/403464253.jpg" target="top">ca.yimg.com/i/ca/reuters/20020323/i/403464253.jpg</a>

    And I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist giving a link to this pic:
    <a href="http://cache.corbis.com/THUMBS/TDIR0745/X00150_9.JPG" target="top">cache.corbis.com/THUMBS/TDIR0745/X00150_9.JPG</a>

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