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Thread: The Triple Axel and the Ladies

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The Triple Axel and the Ladies

    I think the jump is becoming more and more prominent and I expect by Vancouver we will see at least three attempts and maybe all of them completed. By the time we are discussing Tokyo, I believe the jump will be standard a la the 2A.

    I'm hoping all you Jr Level skating fans are keeping your eye on the triple axels coming forth in 2005 grand prix series, and not just the bielman spins. Remember, good entry; good posture and full turns in the air; and good landing with good flow out.

    The Triple Axels

    1. Who has it now?

    2. Who's working on it now?

    3. Who will just never get it?

    Joe

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Answering my own questions:

    1. Kimmie does have a 3A and I believe Mao also has one. Those are the only two that I know of. I will not be surprised if Carolina comes up with an attempt in Torino anyway.

    2. Bebe is landing them in harness but will that get her one when the harness is removed? She will have to do it at Nats with the 3rd place at stake. I hope she lands it. Anyone know of others working on the fab 3A?

    3. The 3 Graces: Irina, Michelle and Sasha: I believe it just isn't in their era to work on and get a 3A. They were part of 3x3 era which Tara started 7 years ago, and they didn't heed Midori and Tonya's warnings. I guess they didn't have to, they had their styles which could win a 6.0 competition .

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    ... The 3 Graces: Irina, Michelle and Sasha ... : They were part of 3x3 era which Tara started 7 years ago and they didn't heed Midori and Tonya's warnings ...

    Joe
    Wasn't it somewhere between eight and ten years between Tonya's fall ('94) and the next time ladies landed triple axels (SA, '02 or '03), with Tara's starting the 3x3 era in the middle? Somehow, I can't help thinking that triple axels somehow "went out of fashion" with Tonya, and the 3x3 era "took its place"; with Tonya fading from memory, 3 axels are "back in style". Anyway, I can't see much of a "warning" in Modori and Tonya, since it took so long before anyone seemed to "heed it".

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    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    carolina attempting on a 3axel is very unlikey just because her 2axel is very low and she barely makes the rotation. she won't have enough height on her jump. Plus, I think axel is her least favorite jump.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Did Tara start the triple-triple era? Michelle did triple toe-triple toe at Skate America in 1995.

    Midori Ito did the first triple-triple ever by a lady, in 1982, the year Tara was born.

    Anything can happen, but of the current crop I don't think anyone except Mao Asada will actually bring a reliable triple Axel into the equation.

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-27-2005 at 10:31 PM.

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    3axel

    Kimmie is landing her 3 axel clean 50% of the time. I was at UofD today. - Her FS will have 3axel 3lutz/3toe 3flip/3toe. Tim and Audrey are due back next wk. also and I will get to see how he is doing. I will pay closer attention to how she progresses in the flow out of her jumps. Will post reports.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Answering my own questions:

    1. Kimmie does have a 3A and I believe Mao also has one. Those are the only two that I know of. I will not be surprised if Carolina comes up with an attempt in Torino anyway.
    I would be very surprised to see Carolina landing triple axels i'd expect to see a quad from her before a triple axel - her technique on the double axel doesn't look solid enough and her double doesn't seem to get much height and "step up" into the jump. I think predicting skaters for triple axels they'd have to have a good strong technique on the double with great lift and a slight delay/open on the first half turn. If you look at the lower ranked male skaters out there who don't yet include triple axels in their programs they all have that technique. Both Lambiel and Van de Perren had the more female type double axel the first time they were on the senior circut, the next year they both had the stronger double axels i've described and then they started attempting (lambiel more successfully than VDP) the triple in competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    2. Bebe is landing them in harness but will that get her one when the harness is removed? She will have to do it at Nats with the 3rd place at stake. I hope she lands it. Anyone know of others working on the fab 3A?
    Well it all depends on how much help is being given in the harness, both Yags and Kulik were said to be landing quad axels in a harness during their eligible careers but it doesn't mean much if they had a body builder pulling on the other end! I'd be more concerned with Bebe getting her hip totally healed and being able to land pain free triple loops. The other problem with the harness is even if you do start landing jumps in them with no help at all they can sometimes be psychological crutches that when taken away mean you can't land the jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    3. The 3 Graces: Irina, Michelle and Sasha: I believe it just isn't in their era to work on and get a 3A. They were part of 3x3 era which Tara started 7 years ago, and they didn't heed Midori and Tonya's warnings. I guess they didn't have to, they had their styles which could win a 6.0 competition .
    Well apparently in the summer after 1995 worlds Kwan was landing her triple axel 50% of the time along with the 3/3 - remember at '95 worlds she was the "jumping bean" not the "artiste"! Apparently frank's thing was not to let her put something in the program until it was 80-90% there in practice which meant that the 3A would not be going in the program. Then once the results started coming through on both the presentation mark and the technical (with the 3T/3T) they sacked off the idea of the 3A. In previous nationals Kwan had mentioned Harding as a role model (pre whack!) and the 3A being an ambition.

    I honestly think of all the senior ladies Irina has the best double axel - a really high pop into the jump with that nice high kicking through free knee, open half turn and then an easy two rotations. Its the jump she usually has great flow into and out of - and the devilishly difficult entrance into it from her SP from last year. I think she'd be the most suited to try but i've always thought this about her and she hasn't yet. I don't think the olympic season is the one to start trying. Nor does she need one!

    Ant

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Thank you all for the nice informative replies to my statements which were just my way of 'thinking out loud'.

    I didn't know Kwan was working on a 3A way back when. Too bad that didn't become a regular habit.

    I still believe the 3A for the ladies will be a standard move by Tokyo Worlds and I look to the junior gals right now to make it so. There does seem to be an 'era', imo for certain difficult skating moves to become standard fare.

    We really don't know much about what the top skaters have been doing to enhance their chances of winning gold in 2006. From last March till the GPs, they've been at the drawing boards. If Kimmie makes the team, I believe we will see the 3A in Torino. Whether or not she lands it, we have to wait and see. She and Carolina are the two teenyboppers to upset the applecart.

    Joe

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    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    I agree that Mao and Kimmie are the only ones that have the 3A right now. And it will be a great deal harder, IMO, for Kimmie to land it at Nats '06 than it was last year. MUCH more on the line this time around. I agree she will try it.
    Carolina ... no. As stated, her 2A just barely makes it. But I wouldn't rule out a 3/3/3 from her.
    Personally, I'd love to see Bebe land one and go to Torino.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Thank you all for the nice informative replies to my statements which were just my way of 'thinking out loud'.

    I didn't know Kwan was working on a 3A way back when. Too bad that didn't become a regular habit.

    I still believe the 3A for the ladies will be a standard move by Tokyo Worlds and I look to the junior gals right now to make it so. There does seem to be an 'era', imo for certain difficult skating moves to become standard fare.

    We really don't know much about what the top skaters have been doing to enhance their chances of winning gold in 2006. From last March till the GPs, they've been at the drawing boards. If Kimmie makes the team, I believe we will see the 3A in Torino. Whether or not she lands it, we have to wait and see. She and Carolina are the two teenyboppers to upset the applecart.

    Joe
    When is Tokyo worlds? Is that the worlds at the end of next season? I would have to disagree about the triple axel becoming standard for the ladies by then. Look at the trajectory of the quad...it is taking the ladies much longer with the triple axel than it took the men with the quad.

    Looking at the quad Browning first landed it in 1988 (is that right?). Stojko and Urmanov were attempting them with hit an miss results up until about 1994/5 which was when Elvis started landing his quite regularly. Elvis was then alone (and largely winning competitions as result oflanding it) in successfully landing it, with Urmanov (and eventually Kulik) also having on and off success along with a chinese skater who's name escapes me. It wasn't until 1998 (ten years after the first landing of the quad) olympic year that we saw many more skaters - the russians, the chinese and a few others attempting them. Why? Because Elvis had started landing the jump consistently over a two seaon period and was coming away with the Gold every time he hit the quad and a full set of triples. To my mind we haven't yet had a female skater who can go out and land the triple axel consistently over several seasons to show the other women that its a must have jump. Part of the porblem is that the female jumping beans are either taking the medal and running on their first Olympics or are crippling themselves with the practice it takes to get the jumps.

    Perhaps Asada will be to female skating with a triple axel what Elvis was to male skating with the quad - the one to bring it to every competition landing more attempts then failing over a couple of seasons...she may of course end up with two ceramic hips before she turns 16 :-(

    Ant

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    Down With It
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    Kimmie is landing her 3 axel clean 50% of the time. I was at UofD today. - Her FS will have 3axel 3lutz/3toe 3flip/3toe
    Wow, that's quite an arsenal. What if she can pull this off in competition?

    I, too, had no idea Kwan could even do a 3A. Can she still do it now?

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    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    I, too, had no idea Kwan could even do a 3A. Can she still do it now?
    Gee, I don't think so.

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    I remember reading back then the Michelle quit training the 3 axel in part because it was throwing off her timing with the 2 axel.

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    3Axel

    Kimmie is landing 3flip/3toe/2loop also .I saw her do that and it was clean. Tim did nothing today but jump rope and run with some leg lifts. Will post again.

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    The quality of the triple axel jumps currently being performed/attempted will have to improve before it becomes such a must have element, IMHO. Back in the early 90s, Midori and Tonya were attempting and often (well, Ito, anyway) landing beautiful triple axel jumps. Today, we see some ladies attempting them.....but they aren't well executed jumps. They are small and shaky, and I think most notable for the simple fact that such a difficult element is being attempted. As of now, none of the current ladies have shown they can pop one off anywhere near the likes of Harding or Ito. Things could certainly change, but as of now I just don't see the 3a becoming a staple in ladies skating within the next couple of seasons.

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