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Thread: The Triple Axel and the Ladies

  1. #31
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    I am just stating an observation. Kimmie landed a clean triple axel during the warm up but during the performance her triple axel was very underrotated. She will land one (and more) in the future, but this one was not a completed triple axel (during the competition).
    OK OK OK. To me it was not underrotated having seen it right in front of me. But more important. Is this the beginning of saying every 3A she does is underrotated based on one jump? because the accusation that she needs to work on her 3A to fully rotate it is implying that she doesn't complete the rotation every time. :sheesh:

    Fans do worry about a new guy on the block who may be in contention to beat their favorite, and they are not permitted to improve.

    Kimmie will be in a few competitions this coming season. Let's check her out before this branding becomes rampant.

    Joe

  2. #32
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Isn't the Worlds normally in March of the year?

    My point of the 3A becoming a standard jump is that it will begin in Juniors. I think by Tokyo Worlds, Mao and Kimmie will by then be knocking them off and so will their young competitors attempting them. In 2008 the new era will be among us .

    Why do I get the feeling that the fans are not all together with a podium place for Carolina? My problem with her is that she fades after 2.7 minutes. That's corrective criticism because she can learn how to keep the pace and stamina right till the end.

    Joe
    Well if history is anything to go by i don't think the triple axel will become a staple ladies jump. If Ito and Harding - 2 stong muscular WOMEN attempting big triple axels regularly in compeition for a couple of seasons didn't cause the jump to become a laides jump then i seriously doubt that 2 prepubescent girls attempting small barely clean triple axels will make the jump staple. I've not seen Kimmie's nationals 3A attempt but people who i know personally and who's opinions i trust said the jump was not totally clean. If doing the triple axel and getting -GOEs on it doesn't prove to be a fruitful quest then i doubt it will catch on.

    Which leads to the most important point that when a jump starts becoming staple in skating - it takes a few underrotated/double footed/just about eeked out one foot attempts in competition. Under 6.0 whether the rules said that you sould or should not, people would get credit for them. I have no doubt that Elvis's 4T/3T at 1994 worlds got pretty much full credit despite being flawed. That will not happen under COP. If the jump is downgraded (and accorind gto some under CoP Kimmie's nationals 3A would have been) then there is a huge disinsentive to attempting the jump at since clean and well executed in terms of number of rotations of jumps seems to be the way over harder sloppy jumps. Which is totally different to spins!

    Ant

  3. #33
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    You will see all of Kimmie's talents soon. So be prepared. Last season was last season. I don't know why fans refuse to allow skaters to improve. I believe they just don't want someone around who could outshine their favorite. Am I correct?

    Joe
    Conversely some people don't want to overhype a skater who is very talented but still very young. Overhyping can put too much pressure on a young competitor which can ruin that skaters career. I don't understand why anyone would go on and on about a skater like they're the second coming of christ when she has yet to compete in a senior international event. I don't doubt that she's good i just question the wisdom of declaring her the next bg thing - look at what the hype has done to Cohen - the pressure to deliver that elusive clean LP just gets greater and greater.

    Ant

  4. #34
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    OK OK OK. To me it was not underrotated having seen it right in front of me. But more important. Is this the beginning of saying every 3A she does is underrotated based on one jump? because the accusation that she needs to work on her 3A to fully rotate it is implying that she doesn't complete the rotation every time. :sheesh:

    Fans do worry about a new guy on the block who may be in contention to beat their favorite, and they are not permitted to improve.

    Kimmie will be in a few competitions this coming season. Let's check her out before this branding becomes rampant.

    Joe
    I don't think anyone is branding her with anything....its just TOO SOON!!!!!

    Most people have commented that in practices for nationals she was on fire and landing CLEAN...i'll say it again so that it evens out the fact i'll say underrotated twice later on this post CLEAN triple axels.

    Folks are just wanting to state for the record that when people scream and shout about "the first triple axel at US nationals since Tonya" that the jump was actually underotated...that is the jump that was attempted at that competition was underotated, not that all future jumps will be presumed to be underotated until proven otherwise just that one jump.

    I don't see the big deal. Surya had some very close calls on the quad toe and the quad sal but they were underotated and no-one was ready to declare her the first.

    Ant

  5. #35
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    and where was all the hullabaloo when Tara was underrotating the consecutive loop jumps every time, and landing in squat positions?

    Joe

  6. #36
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    and where was all the hullabaloo when Tara was underrotating the consecutive loop jumps every time, and landing in squat positions?

    Joe
    You're kidding right? At the time nearly every other post about tara was that the 3L/3L wasn't ever clean. For the record i agree with the staetment in respect of '97 worlds but in the '98 nagano LP that jump combination was clean as a whistle.

    Come on its skating - there's always something to criticise in a prformance even if someone thinks its perfect .

    Seriously though - some people still whinge on about Sarah Hughes's underrotated 3/3s at SLC. For me i thought one was spot on and clean and thought the other was underrotated on the landing of the 3loop but without checking the tape i forget which one was which . I think the first jump combo was clean and the second was a touch cheated but not hugely.

    Ant

  7. #37
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    I can tell you Carolina won't be trying a 3 axel as she has enough probs with the double! A quad is more likely and 3-3-3 even more so (she's been working on that for a few years now and landing it quite often in practice).

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    If the jump is downgraded (and accorind gto some under CoP Kimmie's nationals 3A would have been) then there is a huge disinsentive to attempting the jump at since clean and well executed in terms of number of rotations of jumps seems to be the way over harder sloppy jumps. Which is totally different to spins!
    Not necessarily. At Liberty I saw so many would-be higher level spins that I was all set to give a +1 in my practice-judging mind until they tried to squeak in one more feature for a higher level or even just another position and lost enough control to turn that +1 to a -1 or even -2. And sometimes they wouldn't even complete the attempted feature successfully enough for it to get credit toward the higher level.

    When they see the protocols, they can do the math to figure out if they'd be better off sticking with a simpler spin and aiming for a higher GOE, or going for the higher level even with the risk of minus GOEs.

    To some degree it may be worth it to a skater to risk poor GOEs on a spin they're just starting to attempt in competition to get more experience with it and more likelihood of higher GOEs later in the season. Same as with jumps that aren't totally consistent or totally clean yet in practice -- at some point you have to put it out in competition and probably fail a few times before you get it right. But if you're not capable of getting it right at all yet, then save it for practice until you are.

  9. #39
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    When they see the protocols, they can do the math to figure out if they'd be better off sticking with a simpler spin and aiming for a higher GOE, or going for the higher level even with the risk of minus GOEs.

    To some degree it may be worth it to a skater to risk poor GOEs on a spin they're just starting to attempt in competition to get more experience with it and more likelihood of higher GOEs later in the season. Same as with jumps that aren't totally consistent or totally clean yet in practice -- at some point you have to put it out in competition and probably fail a few times before you get it right. But if you're not capable of getting it right at all yet, then save it for practice until you are.
    Good advice for skaters and their strategy. It also is a good note for fans who believe if they see underrotated jumps it doesn't mean there will be consistent underrotated jumps in the future.

    Thinking of Michael and his quad. If he rotates the 4 turns and lands it with a toe touch (which is likely), will his base score less the -GOE give him more points than if he left it out? Let's face it, points are what win these competitions, and a skater has to get points any which way he can.

    Joe

  10. #40
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Good advice for skaters and their strategy. It also is a good note for fans who believe if they see underrotated jumps it doesn't mean there will be consistent underrotated jumps in the future.

    Thinking of Michael and his quad. If he rotates the 4 turns and lands it with a toe touch (which is likely), will his base score less the -GOE give him more points than if he left it out? Let's face it, points are what win these competitions, and a skater has to get points any which way he can.

    Joe
    The base value for a quad toe loop is 9 points, v. 4 points for a tripple toe loop. In this particular example, it looks like Michael is better off with a quad and 2-foot landing.

    DG

  11. #41
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Good advice for skaters and their strategy. It also is a good note for fans who believe if they see underrotated jumps it doesn't mean there will be consistent underrotated jumps in the future.

    Thinking of Michael and his quad. If he rotates the 4 turns and lands it with a toe touch (which is likely), will his base score less the -GOE give him more points than if he left it out? Let's face it, points are what win these competitions, and a skater has to get points any which way he can.

    Joe
    Herein lies the stupidity of COP - if he fully rotates the quad (which is a big if) and touches the ice with the free skate then, assuming the jump was worthy of just base value, the free foot touch down would be -1 so the base value of the quad toe (9) minus one makes 8. So a flawed quad toe is worth more than a base value executed triple axel.

    The problem is that 9 times out of ten if the jump is two footed it is likely that there will have been problems with other phases of the jump which might mean a -2 ...still even if its -2 its still worth the same as a base value triple lutz.

    The total lunacy is if (and this is an even bigger if) a skater fully rotates a quad toe but falls , they get -3 GOE plus mandatory -1 for a fall, which makes the totally flawed quad toe worth 5...i.e. worth the same as +1 Triple toe or base value triple loop and worth more than a base value triple sal. To my find a fall should just be scored as 0 and the jump should only count to the total jumping passes.

    Ant

  12. #42
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Thanks for the explanation antmanb - I figured it was worth going for it. The danger of the higher level jumps seems to be the rotation where it can be downgraded but only if the Tech Asst. sees it that way. The penalty is severe.

    Yet that same Tech Asst can watch a skater intend to do a lutz but is unable to hold the take-off edge and does a totally different jump (flip) instead. The penalty is a wrist slap.

    I think it's time to get rid of pussy footing the lutz and if you don't do it, no credit at all. If it's considered a flip then you must face the Zayak Rule.

    Joe

  13. #43
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Ant - there is a logical side of my brain that sort of agrees with you that a fall should be a failed attempt - no points. But of course that would change the whole risk picture for the skater, so we would probably see less risk taking which selfishly speaking, would take some of the fun out of it for me as an armchair quarterback.

    Joe, ITA on the lutz front. I would love to see the Technical callers start cracking down on the bad lutzes. That's the only way the skaters who are notorious flutzers will be motivated to work on fixing the problem. And the skaters who DO have good technique would end up getting the proper reward for their effort.

    DG

  14. #44
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Thanks for the explanation antmanb - I figured it was worth going for it. The danger of the higher level jumps seems to be the rotation where it can be downgraded but only if the Tech Asst. sees it that way. The penalty is severe.

    Yet that same Tech Asst can watch a skater intend to do a lutz but is unable to hold the take-off edge and does a totally different jump (flip) instead. The penalty is a wrist slap.

    I think it's time to get rid of pussy footing the lutz and if you don't do it, no credit at all. If it's considered a flip then you must face the Zayak Rule.

    Joe
    Trouble is that following the letter of the rules - they specifically discuss a -3 GOE as being the punishment for a severe change of edge on a flip or lutz jump so its unlikely to be called anything else. I must say that i do agree with the "mark the jump as it was intended" attitude. It is clear (except perhaps with sasha ) whethe a skater is intending a lutz or a flip. Out of interest would you call a triple toe that was a toe axel a double axel or a flawed triple toe? How about a cheated take of salchow - bad double axel with a faulty take off edge of a bad triple sal?

    CoP just doesn't use the same "ideology" if you will, in terms of how it scores elements.

    Ant

  15. #45
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    This discussion is interesting, because one of the main criticisms of the CoP is exactly the opposite -- that it does not reward the huge elements (quads for men and triple-triples for ladies) enough. Under the CoP you can cobble together a point here and a point there, with easy triples, and never really do anything that sets you off from the pack.

    I go back and forth on this issue. How much sport and how much beauty contest?

    Mathman

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