The Triple Axel and the Ladies | Page 3 | Golden Skate

The Triple Axel and the Ladies

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
Good advice for skaters and their strategy. It also is a good note for fans who believe if they see underrotated jumps it doesn't mean there will be consistent underrotated jumps in the future.

Thinking of Michael and his quad. If he rotates the 4 turns and lands it with a toe touch (which is likely), will his base score less the -GOE give him more points than if he left it out? Let's face it, points are what win these competitions, and a skater has to get points any which way he can.

Joe

Herein lies the stupidity of COP - if he fully rotates the quad (which is a big if) and touches the ice with the free skate then, assuming the jump was worthy of just base value, the free foot touch down would be -1 so the base value of the quad toe (9) minus one makes 8. So a flawed quad toe is worth more than a base value executed triple axel.

The problem is that 9 times out of ten if the jump is two footed it is likely that there will have been problems with other phases of the jump which might mean a -2 ...still even if its -2 its still worth the same as a base value triple lutz.

The total lunacy is if (and this is an even bigger if) a skater fully rotates a quad toe but falls , they get -3 GOE plus mandatory -1 for a fall, which makes the totally flawed quad toe worth 5...i.e. worth the same as +1 Triple toe or base value triple loop and worth more than a base value triple sal. To my find a fall should just be scored as 0 and the jump should only count to the total jumping passes.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Thanks for the explanation antmanb - I figured it was worth going for it. The danger of the higher level jumps seems to be the rotation where it can be downgraded but only if the Tech Asst. sees it that way. The penalty is severe.

Yet that same Tech Asst can watch a skater intend to do a lutz but is unable to hold the take-off edge and does a totally different jump (flip) instead. The penalty is a wrist slap.

I think it's time to get rid of pussy footing the lutz and if you don't do it, no credit at all. If it's considered a flip then you must face the Zayak Rule.

Joe
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Ant - there is a logical side of my brain that sort of agrees with you that a fall should be a failed attempt - no points. But of course that would change the whole risk picture for the skater, so we would probably see less risk taking which selfishly speaking, would take some of the fun out of it for me as an armchair quarterback. :)

Joe, ITA on the lutz front. I would love to see the Technical callers start cracking down on the bad lutzes. That's the only way the skaters who are notorious flutzers will be motivated to work on fixing the problem. And the skaters who DO have good technique would end up getting the proper reward for their effort.

DG
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
Thanks for the explanation antmanb - I figured it was worth going for it. The danger of the higher level jumps seems to be the rotation where it can be downgraded but only if the Tech Asst. sees it that way. The penalty is severe.

Yet that same Tech Asst can watch a skater intend to do a lutz but is unable to hold the take-off edge and does a totally different jump (flip) instead. The penalty is a wrist slap.

I think it's time to get rid of pussy footing the lutz and if you don't do it, no credit at all. If it's considered a flip then you must face the Zayak Rule.

Joe

Trouble is that following the letter of the rules - they specifically discuss a -3 GOE as being the punishment for a severe change of edge on a flip or lutz jump so its unlikely to be called anything else. I must say that i do agree with the "mark the jump as it was intended" attitude. It is clear (except perhaps with sasha :p ) whethe a skater is intending a lutz or a flip. Out of interest would you call a triple toe that was a toe axel a double axel or a flawed triple toe? How about a cheated take of salchow - bad double axel with a faulty take off edge of a bad triple sal?

CoP just doesn't use the same "ideology" if you will, in terms of how it scores elements.

Ant
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This discussion is interesting, because one of the main criticisms of the CoP is exactly the opposite -- that it does not reward the huge elements (quads for men and triple-triples for ladies) enough. Under the CoP you can cobble together a point here and a point there, with easy triples, and never really do anything that sets you off from the pack.

I go back and forth on this issue. How much sport and how much beauty contest?

Mathman
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
antmanb said:
Conversely some people don't want to overhype a skater who is very talented but still very young. Overhyping can put too much pressure on a young competitor which can ruin that skaters career. I don't understand why anyone would go on and on about a skater like they're the second coming of christ when she has yet to compete in a senior international event. I don't doubt that she's good i just question the wisdom of declaring her the next bg thing - look at what the hype has done to Cohen - the pressure to deliver that elusive clean LP just gets greater and greater.

Ant

ITA. Not to mention people get sick of it and end up turning on the skater.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Before we get all hyped up about quads and 3A's for the ladies, let's see how this worked out for the men at the last Worlds. Nearly all the men have a 3A, and quite a few have a sometime quad.:

1 Lambiel - good quad, pops his 3A most of the time
2 Buttle - no quad, often misses his 3A
3 Lysacek- no quad good 3A
4 Weir - no quad good 3A

So the big jumps just didn't pay at Worlds this year for the men under COP. Now what did pay in jumps was getting in 3 combos, one of which was a 3 jump combo. And doing 5 solo jumps additional. Add higher level spins and F/W. And not getting excessive -1's for falling.

Now the Olympics is a high stress time, and the Olympics is no time for brushing off that jump you never had the guts to try in competition before. Dick Button :rock: :rock: introduced a new jump twice at Olympics, but since Dick, most people just rode the horse they came in on, the lucky and skillful ones being able to land their normal and rarely their best case jumps. Wylie's 3A was inconsistent, but he had at least tried it in competition before the Olympic year, for example.

Consider the cautionary tale of Todd Eldredge. Now consider that under COP, Todd would have been much more in contention with his previous year quadless LP.
 

rjulie510

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
I wouldn't say Lysacek's 3A is good. I don't think it's that consistent, and I'm not convined that he fully rotates it.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
antmanb said:
Trouble is that following the letter of the rules - they specifically discuss a -3 GOE as being the punishment for a severe change of edge on a flip or lutz jump so its unlikely to be called anything else. I must say that i do agree with the "mark the jump as it was intended" attitude. Ant
OK if you believe in the 'intent' attitude. I just don't. If a skater intended to do 4 revolutions in the air but only made 3.70 revolutions, he faces a double whammy: One for under and one for over rotating. Yet a skater who intends to do a jump but can't and does a totally different jump instead is OK. I just don't buy it.

From a strategy point of view the former will prevent anyone who is not absolutely sure of his quad to not do one and the other, if it were judged by the actual jump and not the intended one, would make skaters work on doing the intended jump correctly. Why not? The skaters we see who flutz are still flutzing. Why not? the penalty is small and it doesn't violate the Zayak rule.

Joe
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
DORISPULASKI said:
1 Lambiel - good quad, pops his 3A most of the time
2 Buttle - no quad, often misses his 3A
3 Lysacek- no quad good 3A
4 Weir - no quad good 3A
Which is why, if Plushenko is healthy and Joubert skates up to his potential, these skaters will be competing for bronze.
 

heyang

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ladskater said:
"Frankly Scarlett...." I don't care if the ladies ever land a triple axle. It is not necessary, in my opinion. Midori Ito was a phenomenal jumper - Kurt used to quip "Midori could compete with the men." Since Midori no one has really stepped up to the plate so to speak. The men struggle with the quad. Do we really want to see the frustration the ladies will go through trying to nail a triple axle? Sacrificing grace and attention to other detail for another turn in the air - not worth it for me.

Your third question - Who will never get it? says it all. Probably the majority of the ladies out there. I will be shot down for this I am sure, but I would rather watch a skater like Sasha Cohen putting all the beautiful finishing touches and graceful elements she does into her program and bypassing the triple axle.

Just call me an old school figure skater.

I hear you LadSkater. I only get to see what's broadcast on TV, which means the top 6. Kimmie didn't impress me as having the explosive spring of either Midori or Tonya - and I haven't noticed any mature skater with the same power. The ladies who have the 3A are still physicallly immature - really still girls. I won't be impressed until they pass puberty.

I'd rather see beautiful line,musicality and consistent grace being developed in all the skills over concentrating on a single jump. I enjoyed Mike Weiss a lot more before he started going for the quad in competition, which seemed to totally zap the rest of his program regardless of the results on the quad. Sasha's program also paid the price when she kept on trying to get a quad in her program - perhaps that was the start of her mental block?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Doris - I don't think we've seen that much of Stephane to write him off as one who has a problematic 3A. If I remember in Dortmund, he did his 3A quite well. He has been on the injured list for many years including time after Dortmund. He's just another skater to watch in the GPs. I'm sure we'll see him on TV. I kind of feel the 3A and the quad will be there and all those rotations on spins.

Brian's quads are as good as Stephane's and Evgeni as well, but he has other problems. If he gets his act together, he will be on the podium but only if at this point in time.

Evgeni is genius when it comes to big jumps. Over and Out.

The Americans and Canadians will be ok but these European guys are the best at the moment.

OH, how I am looking forward to the GPs.

Now back to the Ladies and the 3As. Only the youngest of the lot will attempt them. They have nothing to lose. They will be in the same boat Sarah Hughes was after the SP. The three Graces will not attempt them because they can not do them. It's that simple.

Joe
 

flowjo35

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Joesitz said:
Last season was last season. I don't know why fans refuse to allow skaters to improve. Joe

Joe, This is a good quote for to remember. You can not compare seasons. One season a skater might not do to well, but the next can be a fantastic year. Hoping for the best for my favorite skaters in this big O season :)

Back to the topic, I hope the skaters that are attempting these 3 axels will get there technique down first and not just to them for points, which unfortunately is the way many elements may be done this season.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The point I was most trying to make was that Jeff Buttle, quadless, and almost 3A less is rated second in the world at this time. COP makes that so. A clever lady will look and learn.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
flowjo35 said:
Joe, This is a good quote for to remember. You can not compare seasons. One season a skater might not do to well, but the next can be a fantastic year. Hoping for the best for my favorite skaters in this big O season :)

Back to the topic, I hope the skaters that are attempting these 3 axels will get there technique down first and not just to them for points, which unfortunately is the way many elements may be done this season.
Flowjo - Thanks for the approval about the seasons being different.

Unfortunately, points are what the skaters MUST have to do well. Remember Kwan was off the podium because of less than one point. Or was it less than a few points? No matter, it was close. In this day and age in figure skating every point counts. Had she done a 2loop jump she could have been on the podium.

So, don't be surprised if some of the Ladies throw in an attempted 3A. There are skaters who take risks.

Joe
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ya know Joe, maybe you're right. In fact, I know you are. I would suggest that all the ladies attempt a 3A. It doesn't matter if they can do them or not ... just attempting them is what counts. And if they have to wipe the ice with their butts in the process, they can at least say they took the risk. And I guess that is what is most important.

A good analogy would be in baseball. Bases loaded ... two outs ... bottom of the ninth inning ... your team is down by one run. The batter up is the shortstop, with 4 career homeruns to his name in his 8 years of playing. The old theory would be for him to make contact and go for the single ... 2 runs score ... your team wins.
But that would be pretty lame of him. He should swing for the homerun. Imagine getting a grand slam to win the game? And just think how much he would be praised and admired for this feat.
Of course he could strike out ... but at least he would have taken that risk.
 

76olympics

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
I am with the minority ( I think) camp with Ladskater. I have seen very few female skaters with the physiques of Harding and Ito--and I just don't picture the landscape suddenly filling with them now. Those two performed the only really good Triple As I have seen from the ladies (and of those two - Ito was the best by far).

I fear that if this becomes the focus for the ladies, it will take away from artistry and mastery of elements that are far more within reach for most. I don't want to watch more falls and more injured skaters.

I really feel the same way in regard to the quad with the men.
 

MKbeauty

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Question

Can someone answer a quick question for me? I've been trying to figure out what advantage there would be for the ladies to try a 3/3/3 under the new system. Since they can only repeat two triples and there is no bonus for combinations, isn't a skater better off going for a 3/3/2 and doing the other triple solo (preferably after the 2 min. mark to get bonus points)? Is it because they can then throw in a 2nd double axel for the 7th jumping pass?
 
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S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
Midori Ito had a gorgeous triple axel - one that was as strong as the triple axels performed by Boitano and Orser - all of who competed during the same period during the 1980s. Tonya Harding was the first American woman who landed a triple axel at Nationals and Worlds, and she had a great TA, but of course she shot herself in the foot with her outrageous behavior and compliance with the attack on Nancy Kerrigan.

It's been over a decade since that period, and, frankly, what's the point in training for the triple axel? Sure, it's a high-flying acrobatic feat, and it has the potential to score high points, but -- FIGURE SKATING IS NOT JUST ABOUT JUMPS.

Figure skating consists of carriage, line, posture, musical interpretation, choregraphy, technique, and of course jumping ability. But, frankly, I would rather see a well-skated, balanced program with "only" triple lutzes, flips, and toes instead of a program that is marred by triple axel attempts.

Just my two cents.
 
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