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Thread: The Triple Axel and the Ladies

  1. #46
    Down With It
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Conversely some people don't want to overhype a skater who is very talented but still very young. Overhyping can put too much pressure on a young competitor which can ruin that skaters career. I don't understand why anyone would go on and on about a skater like they're the second coming of christ when she has yet to compete in a senior international event. I don't doubt that she's good i just question the wisdom of declaring her the next bg thing - look at what the hype has done to Cohen - the pressure to deliver that elusive clean LP just gets greater and greater.

    Ant
    ITA. Not to mention people get sick of it and end up turning on the skater.

  2. #47
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Before we get all hyped up about quads and 3A's for the ladies, let's see how this worked out for the men at the last Worlds. Nearly all the men have a 3A, and quite a few have a sometime quad.:

    1 Lambiel - good quad, pops his 3A most of the time
    2 Buttle - no quad, often misses his 3A
    3 Lysacek- no quad good 3A
    4 Weir - no quad good 3A

    So the big jumps just didn't pay at Worlds this year for the men under COP. Now what did pay in jumps was getting in 3 combos, one of which was a 3 jump combo. And doing 5 solo jumps additional. Add higher level spins and F/W. And not getting excessive -1's for falling.

    Now the Olympics is a high stress time, and the Olympics is no time for brushing off that jump you never had the guts to try in competition before. Dick Button introduced a new jump twice at Olympics, but since Dick, most people just rode the horse they came in on, the lucky and skillful ones being able to land their normal and rarely their best case jumps. Wylie's 3A was inconsistent, but he had at least tried it in competition before the Olympic year, for example.

    Consider the cautionary tale of Todd Eldredge. Now consider that under COP, Todd would have been much more in contention with his previous year quadless LP.

  3. #48
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    I wouldn't say Lysacek's 3A is good. I don't think it's that consistent, and I'm not convined that he fully rotates it.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Trouble is that following the letter of the rules - they specifically discuss a -3 GOE as being the punishment for a severe change of edge on a flip or lutz jump so its unlikely to be called anything else. I must say that i do agree with the "mark the jump as it was intended" attitude. Ant
    OK if you believe in the 'intent' attitude. I just don't. If a skater intended to do 4 revolutions in the air but only made 3.70 revolutions, he faces a double whammy: One for under and one for over rotating. Yet a skater who intends to do a jump but can't and does a totally different jump instead is OK. I just don't buy it.

    From a strategy point of view the former will prevent anyone who is not absolutely sure of his quad to not do one and the other, if it were judged by the actual jump and not the intended one, would make skaters work on doing the intended jump correctly. Why not? The skaters we see who flutz are still flutzing. Why not? the penalty is small and it doesn't violate the Zayak rule.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 07-29-2005 at 05:44 PM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI
    1 Lambiel - good quad, pops his 3A most of the time
    2 Buttle - no quad, often misses his 3A
    3 Lysacek- no quad good 3A
    4 Weir - no quad good 3A
    Which is why, if Plushenko is healthy and Joubert skates up to his potential, these skaters will be competing for bronze.

  6. #51
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladskater
    "Frankly Scarlett...." I don't care if the ladies ever land a triple axle. It is not necessary, in my opinion. Midori Ito was a phenomenal jumper - Kurt used to quip "Midori could compete with the men." Since Midori no one has really stepped up to the plate so to speak. The men struggle with the quad. Do we really want to see the frustration the ladies will go through trying to nail a triple axle? Sacrificing grace and attention to other detail for another turn in the air - not worth it for me.

    Your third question - Who will never get it? says it all. Probably the majority of the ladies out there. I will be shot down for this I am sure, but I would rather watch a skater like Sasha Cohen putting all the beautiful finishing touches and graceful elements she does into her program and bypassing the triple axle.

    Just call me an old school figure skater.
    I hear you LadSkater. I only get to see what's broadcast on TV, which means the top 6. Kimmie didn't impress me as having the explosive spring of either Midori or Tonya - and I haven't noticed any mature skater with the same power. The ladies who have the 3A are still physicallly immature - really still girls. I won't be impressed until they pass puberty.

    I'd rather see beautiful line,musicality and consistent grace being developed in all the skills over concentrating on a single jump. I enjoyed Mike Weiss a lot more before he started going for the quad in competition, which seemed to totally zap the rest of his program regardless of the results on the quad. Sasha's program also paid the price when she kept on trying to get a quad in her program - perhaps that was the start of her mental block?

  7. #52
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    Doris - I don't think we've seen that much of Stephane to write him off as one who has a problematic 3A. If I remember in Dortmund, he did his 3A quite well. He has been on the injured list for many years including time after Dortmund. He's just another skater to watch in the GPs. I'm sure we'll see him on TV. I kind of feel the 3A and the quad will be there and all those rotations on spins.

    Brian's quads are as good as Stephane's and Evgeni as well, but he has other problems. If he gets his act together, he will be on the podium but only if at this point in time.

    Evgeni is genius when it comes to big jumps. Over and Out.

    The Americans and Canadians will be ok but these European guys are the best at the moment.

    OH, how I am looking forward to the GPs.

    Now back to the Ladies and the 3As. Only the youngest of the lot will attempt them. They have nothing to lose. They will be in the same boat Sarah Hughes was after the SP. The three Graces will not attempt them because they can not do them. It's that simple.

    Joe

  8. #53
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    The Three Graces! I love it. So which is which? I'll say Sasha = Aglaia (Splendor), Michelle = Euphronsyne (Joy) and Irina = Thalia (Good Cheer).

    http://www.viaartis.org/en/Rubens/PIC_Rubens-001.htm

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Last season was last season. I don't know why fans refuse to allow skaters to improve. Joe
    Joe, This is a good quote for to remember. You can not compare seasons. One season a skater might not do to well, but the next can be a fantastic year. Hoping for the best for my favorite skaters in this big O season

    Back to the topic, I hope the skaters that are attempting these 3 axels will get there technique down first and not just to them for points, which unfortunately is the way many elements may be done this season.
    Last edited by flowjo35; 07-30-2005 at 06:40 AM.

  10. #55
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The point I was most trying to make was that Jeff Buttle, quadless, and almost 3A less is rated second in the world at this time. COP makes that so. A clever lady will look and learn.

  11. #56
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowjo35
    Joe, This is a good quote for to remember. You can not compare seasons. One season a skater might not do to well, but the next can be a fantastic year. Hoping for the best for my favorite skaters in this big O season

    Back to the topic, I hope the skaters that are attempting these 3 axels will get there technique down first and not just to them for points, which unfortunately is the way many elements may be done this season.
    Flowjo - Thanks for the approval about the seasons being different.

    Unfortunately, points are what the skaters MUST have to do well. Remember Kwan was off the podium because of less than one point. Or was it less than a few points? No matter, it was close. In this day and age in figure skating every point counts. Had she done a 2loop jump she could have been on the podium.

    So, don't be surprised if some of the Ladies throw in an attempted 3A. There are skaters who take risks.

    Joe

  12. #57
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Ya know Joe, maybe you're right. In fact, I know you are. I would suggest that all the ladies attempt a 3A. It doesn't matter if they can do them or not ... just attempting them is what counts. And if they have to wipe the ice with their butts in the process, they can at least say they took the risk. And I guess that is what is most important.

    A good analogy would be in baseball. Bases loaded ... two outs ... bottom of the ninth inning ... your team is down by one run. The batter up is the shortstop, with 4 career homeruns to his name in his 8 years of playing. The old theory would be for him to make contact and go for the single ... 2 runs score ... your team wins.
    But that would be pretty lame of him. He should swing for the homerun. Imagine getting a grand slam to win the game? And just think how much he would be praised and admired for this feat.
    Of course he could strike out ... but at least he would have taken that risk.

  13. #58
    Custom Title 76olympics's Avatar
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    I am with the minority ( I think) camp with Ladskater. I have seen very few female skaters with the physiques of Harding and Ito--and I just don't picture the landscape suddenly filling with them now. Those two performed the only really good Triple As I have seen from the ladies (and of those two - Ito was the best by far).

    I fear that if this becomes the focus for the ladies, it will take away from artistry and mastery of elements that are far more within reach for most. I don't want to watch more falls and more injured skaters.

    I really feel the same way in regard to the quad with the men.

  14. #59
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    Question

    Can someone answer a quick question for me? I've been trying to figure out what advantage there would be for the ladies to try a 3/3/3 under the new system. Since they can only repeat two triples and there is no bonus for combinations, isn't a skater better off going for a 3/3/2 and doing the other triple solo (preferably after the 2 min. mark to get bonus points)? Is it because they can then throw in a 2nd double axel for the 7th jumping pass?
    Last edited by MKbeauty; 07-30-2005 at 01:48 PM.

  15. #60
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    Midori Ito had a gorgeous triple axel - one that was as strong as the triple axels performed by Boitano and Orser - all of who competed during the same period during the 1980s. Tonya Harding was the first American woman who landed a triple axel at Nationals and Worlds, and she had a great TA, but of course she shot herself in the foot with her outrageous behavior and compliance with the attack on Nancy Kerrigan.

    It's been over a decade since that period, and, frankly, what's the point in training for the triple axel? Sure, it's a high-flying acrobatic feat, and it has the potential to score high points, but -- FIGURE SKATING IS NOT JUST ABOUT JUMPS.

    Figure skating consists of carriage, line, posture, musical interpretation, choregraphy, technique, and of course jumping ability. But, frankly, I would rather see a well-skated, balanced program with "only" triple lutzes, flips, and toes instead of a program that is marred by triple axel attempts.

    Just my two cents.

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