The Triple Axel and the Ladies | Page 4 | Golden Skate

The Triple Axel and the Ladies

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
MKbeauty said:
Can someone answer a quick question for me? I've been trying to figure out what advantage there would be for the ladies to try a 3/3/3 under the new system. Since they can only repeat two triples and there is no bonus for combinations, isn't a skater better off going for a 3/3/2 and doing the other triple solo (preferably after the 2 min. mark to get bonus points)? Is it because they can then throw in a 2nd double axel for the 7th jumping pass?
From an objective standpoint, the second/third jumps in combo must be toe loops or loops. The base point values are:

2T: 1.3
2Lo: 1.5
3T: 4.0
3Lo: 5.0 (5.5 with bonus)
2A: 3.3 (3.6 with bonus)

The most bonus a skater could get by repeating a 3 in the second half of a program that could be used as the second and third jump -- a 3Lo -- .5. So if the combo were 3Lz/3T/2Lo, with the 3Lo repeated at the end, the total difference would be:

1.5+.5=2

vs.

3Lz/3T/3Lo and a 2A later:

3.3 +10% bonus=3.6. A difference of -1 GOE in the 3/3/3 vs. 3/3/2 would still put the advantage to the 3/3/3, all else being equal.

The former strategy would be worth more if the last double were any other double but a 2A.

The subjective question is whether the "wow" factor of a 3/3/3 for a woman would up the Program Components.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Very interesting. The same analysis seems to apply to a program that has two triple-triple combos. In Buttle's program at worlds, since he didn't have a quad he used up all his triples early and did only two solo double Axels in his last two jumping passes.

For ladies, as a practical matter, I don't think you can do much better than somethig like

3Lz+3T
3F+2T+2Lo (change 2T to 2Lo if you like the loop)
3Lz
3F
3S+2Lo
3Lo (substitute 3T if you are Michelle)
2A

That's 44 or so base points, not counting second half bonuses.

As for the wow factor, you also need some good stuff at the end to avoid the appearance of running out of steam. (However, you could do some great footwork and a couple of split jumps, if you had all of your jumping passes out of the way.)

Mathman
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If they did 2 3/3's, wouldn't that leave an extra jumping pass to add another 2A? That would be extra points right there.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yes. I think it works out the same as in Hockeyfan's analysis one post up. You could gain an extra 1.6 points or so by doing that.
 

chipso1

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Actually Mathman, Michelle wouldn't be able to subsitute the 3loop for a 3toe since she would already be repeating the flip and lutz. . . . .
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Hmm. That's right. That gives a little bit of an advantage to an edge jumper like Irina compared to a toe jumper like Michelle.
 

CDMM1991

Medalist
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Since we are on the topic of jumps in the future and you believe that the triple axel will be elementary for the ladies by 2008, what about quads for men? How many quads do you think the top men will be landing by then? So far I believe we've only seen sal and toe IIRC. I'm thinking maybe three or four, the elementary three being sal, toe, and flip and then the loop will be about as common as the sal is now.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
CDMM1991 said:
Since we are on the topic of jumps in the future and you believe that the triple axel will be elementary for the ladies by 2008, what about quads for men? How many quads do you think the top men will be landing by then? So far I believe we've only seen sal and toe IIRC. I'm thinking maybe three or four, the elementary three being sal, toe, and flip and then the loop will be about as common as the sal is now.
All the basic single air turn jumps permitted in the rules of figure skating are the edge jumps: loop; salchow, and their assists: toe loop; flip; a separate assist
jump the lutz is also permitted. Therefore 5 quads are possible.

I'm not sure if the toeless lutz is permitted but the inside Wally and its assist, Toe Wally are not permitted. If they do permit or eventually will permit them, it will be 3 more quads or a total of 8 to deal with.

At this point in time let's look for the first perfect quad lutz.

Joe
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Thought I would mention here that a poster on another board caught the last 5 minutes of Michelle's practice session yesterday and saw her do a "gorgeous" 3Z/3T/2loop combo. This was from a fairly reliable poster ... if true ... good sign!!!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
nymkfan51 said:
Thought I would mention here that a poster on another board caught the last 5 minutes of Michelle's practice session yesterday and saw her do a "gorgeous" 3Z/3T/2loop combo. This was from a fairly reliable poster ... if true ... good sign!!!
Wheeeee. It shows motivation, too.

Joe
 

CDMM1991

Medalist
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
nymkfan51 said:
Thought I would mention here that a poster on another board caught the last 5 minutes of Michelle's practice session yesterday and saw her do a "gorgeous" 3Z/3T/2loop combo. This was from a fairly reliable poster ... if true ... good sign!!!

Ohhhhhhh doesn't that give us something to talk about!
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Just another tidbit about the person who saw a few minutes of MK's practice session.
He added that she looked "healthy and HAPPY." (with the happy part in caps).
Also said he thought she would do just fine this season.
I, for one, hope he's right!!! :agree:
 

attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Happy, healthy, and (if trying new combinations is any hint) motivated! I can't wait for the season to start!
 

cianni

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
New Report

I now think Kimmie will be a force to beat if she keeps going in the direction I see her going. I have watched her practice for 2 wks now and this is what I see her doing. I saw her hit 2 clean 3 axels 3 toes. I was shocked as I watched her do 3 lutz 3toe 3flip 3toe quite consistent. They arnt always clean but shes really going for it. I cant say her axel is consistent either but she does hit it often. Tim is there and seems frustrated with his jumps. He says hes healthy and the quad is coming along however I havent seen his try one. Hughes has been coming to the rink to workout and uses the back rink at 9pm alone, cant get in to see her as its closed. I was told she is practicing for shows and will not return to comp. It wasnt Sarah who told me that but some of the skaters and those who work behind the counter. Take that info for what its worth. The skaters are using the same spins and trying to do harder jumps. The footwork is mostly like Cohen toepick run spinning around twisting and turning the feet. I see nothing creative as yet but then you can only do so many different moves. I will try to get to the rink to watch the Ice Dancers and see what their doing. Will be back to report in a few wks.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Let me add my thanks, Cianni and note that high consistent technical skills are coming forth quite well for Kimmie.

I've never understood why some posters would not see her go from immature to mature. IMO, there are very few skaters I would say are mature, and they've been around for a long time. I, also believe Kimmie will be as mature as any of her competitors come competition time. Add on the high tech and watch out Ladies!!!

Timmy, take it easy. You have quads, just do them.

Oh, on the second reading it was Sarah you were talking about - not Emilie.

Joe
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Kimmie is going to be a great all around skater, with strong jumps and presentation/artistry. I don't know if she will win an Olympic medal in 2006, but she is likely to be more mature than Sarah was when she won her OGM. The Olympics really seem to favor the younger skaters. It is too bad Mao Asada will not be old enough to compete. It would have been great to see a competition between these two. I have not seen Yu na Kim skate yet, but she may be worth watching too. I don't know if she does the triple axel. I still believe that even in 2010 the ladies can win without a triple axel. Not every lady will be able to land one, and there are too many with other skills that the COP will reward.

Vash
 

bdreampixie

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
I agree Vash about Kimmie. Since I first saw her at 03 Nats, I told my sister she's going to be a champ one day. She has such great technique on everything and a nice line. I can really see her developing into a great all around skater. I don't expect her to really win anything this season, except for a spot on the Olympic team. I do think she will in the future be Nat., World and possibly Olympic champ. I can't wait to see how her skating develops (along with E. Hughes, Katy Taylor and Bebe Liang).
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Just wanted to add my thanks to Cianni for the practice reports!!! Anything you can tell us is like water in the middle of a dry desert to me!!


DG
 
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