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Thread: The Triple Axel and the Ladies

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKbeauty
    Can someone answer a quick question for me? I've been trying to figure out what advantage there would be for the ladies to try a 3/3/3 under the new system. Since they can only repeat two triples and there is no bonus for combinations, isn't a skater better off going for a 3/3/2 and doing the other triple solo (preferably after the 2 min. mark to get bonus points)? Is it because they can then throw in a 2nd double axel for the 7th jumping pass?
    From an objective standpoint, the second/third jumps in combo must be toe loops or loops. The base point values are:

    2T: 1.3
    2Lo: 1.5
    3T: 4.0
    3Lo: 5.0 (5.5 with bonus)
    2A: 3.3 (3.6 with bonus)

    The most bonus a skater could get by repeating a 3 in the second half of a program that could be used as the second and third jump -- a 3Lo -- .5. So if the combo were 3Lz/3T/2Lo, with the 3Lo repeated at the end, the total difference would be:

    1.5+.5=2

    vs.

    3Lz/3T/3Lo and a 2A later:

    3.3 +10% bonus=3.6. A difference of -1 GOE in the 3/3/3 vs. 3/3/2 would still put the advantage to the 3/3/3, all else being equal.

    The former strategy would be worth more if the last double were any other double but a 2A.

    The subjective question is whether the "wow" factor of a 3/3/3 for a woman would up the Program Components.

  2. #62
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Very interesting. The same analysis seems to apply to a program that has two triple-triple combos. In Buttle's program at worlds, since he didn't have a quad he used up all his triples early and did only two solo double Axels in his last two jumping passes.

    For ladies, as a practical matter, I don't think you can do much better than somethig like

    3Lz+3T
    3F+2T+2Lo (change 2T to 2Lo if you like the loop)
    3Lz
    3F
    3S+2Lo
    3Lo (substitute 3T if you are Michelle)
    2A

    That's 44 or so base points, not counting second half bonuses.

    As for the wow factor, you also need some good stuff at the end to avoid the appearance of running out of steam. (However, you could do some great footwork and a couple of split jumps, if you had all of your jumping passes out of the way.)

    Mathman

  3. #63
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    If they did 2 3/3's, wouldn't that leave an extra jumping pass to add another 2A? That would be extra points right there.

  4. #64
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Yes. I think it works out the same as in Hockeyfan's analysis one post up. You could gain an extra 1.6 points or so by doing that.

  5. #65
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    re: Question

    Thanks Hockeyfan & Mathman for the responses - much appreciated.

  6. #66
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Actually Mathman, Michelle wouldn't be able to subsitute the 3loop for a 3toe since she would already be repeating the flip and lutz. . . . .

  7. #67
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Hmm. That's right. That gives a little bit of an advantage to an edge jumper like Irina compared to a toe jumper like Michelle.

  8. #68
    Custom User Title CDMM1991's Avatar
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    Since we are on the topic of jumps in the future and you believe that the triple axel will be elementary for the ladies by 2008, what about quads for men? How many quads do you think the top men will be landing by then? So far I believe we've only seen sal and toe IIRC. I'm thinking maybe three or four, the elementary three being sal, toe, and flip and then the loop will be about as common as the sal is now.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDMM1991
    Since we are on the topic of jumps in the future and you believe that the triple axel will be elementary for the ladies by 2008, what about quads for men? How many quads do you think the top men will be landing by then? So far I believe we've only seen sal and toe IIRC. I'm thinking maybe three or four, the elementary three being sal, toe, and flip and then the loop will be about as common as the sal is now.
    All the basic single air turn jumps permitted in the rules of figure skating are the edge jumps: loop; salchow, and their assists: toe loop; flip; a separate assist
    jump the lutz is also permitted. Therefore 5 quads are possible.

    I'm not sure if the toeless lutz is permitted but the inside Wally and its assist, Toe Wally are not permitted. If they do permit or eventually will permit them, it will be 3 more quads or a total of 8 to deal with.

    At this point in time let's look for the first perfect quad lutz.

    Joe

  10. #70
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Thought I would mention here that a poster on another board caught the last 5 minutes of Michelle's practice session yesterday and saw her do a "gorgeous" 3Z/3T/2loop combo. This was from a fairly reliable poster ... if true ... good sign!!!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by nymkfan51
    Thought I would mention here that a poster on another board caught the last 5 minutes of Michelle's practice session yesterday and saw her do a "gorgeous" 3Z/3T/2loop combo. This was from a fairly reliable poster ... if true ... good sign!!!
    Wheeeee. It shows motivation, too.

    Joe

  12. #72
    Custom User Title CDMM1991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nymkfan51
    Thought I would mention here that a poster on another board caught the last 5 minutes of Michelle's practice session yesterday and saw her do a "gorgeous" 3Z/3T/2loop combo. This was from a fairly reliable poster ... if true ... good sign!!!
    Ohhhhhhh doesn't that give us something to talk about!

  13. #73
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Just another tidbit about the person who saw a few minutes of MK's practice session.
    He added that she looked "healthy and HAPPY." (with the happy part in caps).
    Also said he thought she would do just fine this season.
    I, for one, hope he's right!!!

  14. #74
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    Happy, healthy, and (if trying new combinations is any hint) motivated! I can't wait for the season to start!

  15. #75
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    New Report

    I now think Kimmie will be a force to beat if she keeps going in the direction I see her going. I have watched her practice for 2 wks now and this is what I see her doing. I saw her hit 2 clean 3 axels 3 toes. I was shocked as I watched her do 3 lutz 3toe 3flip 3toe quite consistent. They arnt always clean but shes really going for it. I cant say her axel is consistent either but she does hit it often. Tim is there and seems frustrated with his jumps. He says hes healthy and the quad is coming along however I havent seen his try one. Hughes has been coming to the rink to workout and uses the back rink at 9pm alone, cant get in to see her as its closed. I was told she is practicing for shows and will not return to comp. It wasnt Sarah who told me that but some of the skaters and those who work behind the counter. Take that info for what its worth. The skaters are using the same spins and trying to do harder jumps. The footwork is mostly like Cohen toepick run spinning around twisting and turning the feet. I see nothing creative as yet but then you can only do so many different moves. I will try to get to the rink to watch the Ice Dancers and see what their doing. Will be back to report in a few wks.

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