Now that it's over...the Bolero LP | Golden Skate

Now that it's over...the Bolero LP

nubka

nubka

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Now that we have seen Michelle's performance tonight in the Bolero LP, does anyone here think that Sasha could have taken the gold medal IF... she had skated a clean LP? I honestly don't know... I did feel that Sasha's LP had more content to it.

Out of both of Kwan's programs, I definately liked her SP best (the music was sooo beautiful and so was the choreography.) Bolero seemed kind of empty.

I know the Nutcracker has been used a lot through the years, but I thought that the music really suited Sasha.
 
I absolutely think that Sasha's program was strong enough to have taken the title away from Michelle tonight, if she had skated cleanly and if she had skated last..........those two factors helped to make the difference........just my opinion.....42
 
Bolero

let me go ahead and throw my 2 cents in........ No, I don't think Sasha skating cleanly could have take the title. I have now watched Kwan's LP about 4 times now - for all the drama of Ravel's music, the choreography I find surprisingly subtle - yet dynamic. The footwook section IMO is far superior to Sasha's arm flailling. Sorry, that's how I see it. Sasha's choreography or at least her performance did not match the music! I looked specifically for Sasha to match her movement to the melody line of the pas de deux music - Tchaikovsky gives so many opportunites to phrase to the sweeping melody of the pas de deux music: the final climax of the theme comes and Sasha lets it pass before sinking into her beautiful spiral. I can only imagine the performance when she syncs that spiral to the right chord....... people in Moscow would go absolutely bonkers!

Michelle I felt was very tied to the music, except of course when she finished late (I'd say she was thrown popping the 3z).

Now that may be musical nit-picking but we have all seen that that kind of detail and refinement separates the talented from the champions. I am thinking of Shen and Zhao's interpretation of the pas de deux from 2003 in comparison to Sasha's - no contest for me. Sasha's spins - OMG - what can you say? Of course they are beautiful, but somehow don't add up to much in terms of emotional content. She is a beautiful skater - a doll - a cold, pretty doll.

Jump combo for jump combo I saw that Michelle's we smoother and more dynamic. Watch Bolero again, it grew on me as I watched it; there is much packed into a subtle package.

Anyway... Congratulations to Michelle, Sasha and Kimmy! Way to go! I really want Jenny to kick @##$ at World's and find her "voice". Wouldn't that be cool?

Tenorguy
 
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show 42 said:
I absolutely think that Sasha's program was strong enough to have taken the title away from Michelle tonight, if she had skated cleanly and if she had skated last..........those two factors helped to make the difference........just my opinion.....42
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Without a doubt she had the title in her hand and threw it away. The program was gorgeous. Should be an interesting Worlds.
 
I do like Sasha's LP. And she shown she felt the music.

But it's hard to say. Even Sasha skated clean, got huge marks, you never know what Michelle will come out. Michelle's LP by no means of her best, either. And she never skated better when she was pushed to the corner. That's exactly what was missing from her this LP skating.
 
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Even though we have heard the Nutcracker time and time again.. I do love that piece from it.. and yes, it really does suite Sasha.. Hmmm would she have won if she had skated cleanly? Possibly? Although, Kwan's jumps do look stronger and i can tell she is moving differently to Belero.. Sasha, looks like she is skating to Swan Lake all over again.. not much change in music tempo or choreography.. Michelle, is trying something different and is taking on a new challenge..So who knows? But I do really like Michelle's SP this year.. It is a lovely program for her..
 
I thought Sasha overall had a much more interesting program. I have a problem with "Bolero" being used for singles programs anyway. I just don't feel that given the nature and structure of the music vs. the available motion and maneuver in singles skating, it's possible to do it justice. It worked with Torvill & Dean in part because there were TWO people out there, therefore opening up a whole new range of possibilities of movement, positions, etc. In Michelle's case, there wasn't anything at all wrong with the actual SKATING, but I just didn't really feel it tied in well with the music; it seemed to just kind of be on as background. IMO, this is a piece of music that needs to retired as well; if you have Christopher Dean choreographing it AND Michelle Kwan skating to it, and the overall effect is STILL rather lukewarm, then I can't imagine any other combination of choreographer and skater is going to be able to do any better with it.
 
Tough question. I'm not crazy about either of these long programs. Not Sasha's best program, not Michelle's best program. MK's footwork was the standout for me, really amazing. I think that would tip the scales if there were two clean programs.
I felt the use of the Nutcracker was pretty uninspired, and so was the choreography. It didn't seem to showcase her strengths.
Using Bolero was risky, of course, but for the most part it works, MK pulled it off. It won't go down as one of her signature pieces, but it worked.
 
No, I don't think Sasha clean could have taken the gold. Element for element, outside the jumps, I think MK has a better choreo'd program. And I don't like bolero. I think the only ones who did skate well to it was T&D, and it's not my fav program of theirs by any stretch of the imagination.

I think both Sasha and MK will have to work really hard to sell these programs at worlds. I think the USFSA has created a bit of a problem by keeping the 6.0 when another system is in place. These skaters have had to create kind of 2 programs to compete. And neither one have competed with COPS this year.
But the one who will be the most consistent with it, will have the best chance at being in the top 5. I don't view either one of them as the gold medalist at worlds this year. We'll see. :)
 
I really tried to keep an open mind about Bolero...

...ever since it was confirmed early in the season that MK would be using it. A previous poster who said "if MK and Dean can't pull it off, then it's doubtful any single skater could..." or words to that effect. ITA, and for me anyway, it's not working. I just don't think that music HELPS the skater clearly show off choreo and skills, and build dramatic moments.

While Nutcraker is certainly used again and again and again, I think it at least is a piece that lends itself to taking advantage of dramatic moments, especially for a skater like Sasha. I love Sasha's moves, but I don't nessecarily think the choreo really connects Sasha's moves to the music for full effect.

I liked both of their SP's MUCH better. I like the musical choices and the accomanying choreo much better. Bear in mind I'm not overly sophisticated with these things!!

ITA that both of these ladies have a lot of work to do before Worlds.

2 cents..

DG
 
ITA that both of these ladies have a lot of work to do before Worlds
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Amen. I think that is what it boils down to for both of them. "Bolero" is better than "Tosca" and "Aranjuez" structure wise, IMO, but last night nerves and anxiety seemed to strip away the emotional intensity that was so needed. It was a solid skate, but it wasn't spectacular and Michelle knew that. She seemed very disappointed with herself at the end of the program. I think this is exactly what needed to happen. She has a reason to push herself and the motivation to improve is there. She is in the hunt once again.
Sasha's "Nutcracker" is undoubtedly lovely. There are so many beautiful moments in the program, but as a whole things just didn't add up. It was a bit cold. She desparately needs to harness some of that "Malaguena" fire/emotion and put it into this program and her SP.
I am hoping that they both will realize what needs to be done and do it. They are two of the best in the world and I really want to see them shine in chilly Moscow!
 
Doggygirl said:
...ever since it was confirmed early in the season that MK would be using it. A previous poster who said "if MK and Dean can't pull it off, then it's doubtful any single skater could..." or words to that effect. ITA, and for me anyway, it's not working. I just don't think that music HELPS the skater clearly show off choreo and skills, and build dramatic moments.

While Nutcraker is certainly used again and again and again, I think it at least is a piece that lends itself to taking advantage of dramatic moments, especially for a skater like Sasha. I love Sasha's moves, but I don't nessecarily think the choreo really connects Sasha's moves to the music for full effect.

I liked both of their SP's MUCH better. I like the musical choices and the accomanying choreo much better. Bear in mind I'm not overly sophisticated with these things!!

ITA that both of these ladies have a lot of work to do before Worlds.

2 cents..

DG
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ITA. I wish they'd chosen their SP music as their LP music. Spartacus and Schwarze Auge were beautifully choreographed, and had a lot of personality. The Pas De Deux, for some reason, I think works better with another person on the ice with you...that's why it's called a Pas De Deux. Bolero, much as I love the final footwork sequence, had this machinistic drone that doesn't sing as well as some of her old programs did.
 
Comments

Sasha's program is a better program and she has stronger spins, laybacks and a strong spiral. She wins hands down if she has a clean skate, and especially if Michelle doesn't beef up her jump combinations (this is from a Michelle fan). Having said that, I like Bolero, but it has to be beefed up jump combination wise, if she is to be competitive with Irina. Irins HAS made some significant improvements in her skating, in spite of her illnesses (amazing). Her spins are more centered and faster and Interesting and level 3's. Her spiral sequence is much more interesting and a level 3. She is landing her difficult jump combinations fairly consistently. None of this bodes well for the US ladies. Sasha's Nutcracker is a beautiful program, it suits her style, and it has more content than Bolero. Michelle's Bolero is a good program (her spins are more interesting and faster) but it lacks a strong jump combination and her laybacks aren't as strong as Sasha's and Irina's. Under CoP I think she is going to have some problems. I think Sasha could actually fare better under this new system and be more competitive with Irina than Michelle. I wish Michelle had competed under this new system because she would have had a better idea where she stood early on and made changes accordingly. My worst nightmare is that she doesn't end up on the podium at all. My second worst nightmare is that Spartacus (which I find dull and by the way, what happened to the lutz-loop?) doesn't put her in the top 3 going into the LP. Her ace in the hole is her consistency, especially when her back is against the wall and others have messed up. But you can't count on others messing up. That isn't any kind of strategy I would want to rely on. Paging Lori Nichols.
 
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Ok, seen the Bolero twice now and knid of like it the first time, but last night it lost me or just wasn't paying that close attentions. It's possible that had Sasha skated clean she might have own her marks were right up their. Guess we'll have to wait till worlds for the new scoring, that is if they both skate 2 clean programs.
 
Joe said awhile ago that he thinks Michelle's short, "Spartecus" would make a great long program..........maybe for next year. I totally agree. She took EOE, which was an exhibition number, and made it a marvelous short.........could happen.......42
 
I wasn't overly impressed with Michelle's "Bolero", but I was happy that she won her ninth US championship. To me, at least, the cut of "Bolero" was boring and, well, sounded a bit like elevator music. In contrast, the "Bolero" music that Torvill and Dean skated to in 1984 had a much more pronouced driving beat, and it rose to cresendos several times. The climax of their piece of music was grand, dramatic, and was well suited to both of them falling on the ice together for their final pose. Kwan's music just did not move me at all.

Not to be nitpicking, but Michelle looks a bit heavier than she's been in recent years, and she looked tense and nervous. She doubled her second triple lutz, and she finished nine seconds after the music had stopped. Finishing after the music stopped really cost her at last year's Worlds, and if she does the same thing in Moscow, the judges will penalize her again.

As for Sasha Cohen, it was yet another unfortunate situation of her failing to capitalize on an opportunity to win. Had she skated a clean long program, I think she well might have won, as she skated with speed, determination, and the jumps she completed were strong and beautiful. Yet, on the other hand, perhaps Sasha would not have won, even had she skated her best-ever performance. The judges' marks for Kwan's long program - four 6.0s - clearly indicated that they wanted her to win this championship. And, please excuse me if this sounds like nitpicking (again), but, in my opinion, Michelle did not deserve 6.0s for that long program. It was flawed - the mistake on the lutz and finishing after the end of the music. A string of 5.9s would have been warranted, of course, but not the 6.0s, IMHO.
 
Unless Michelle Kwan fell twelve times, I don't think there is any way on God's green earth that the USFSA judges would have denied her the 9th national championship under 6.0. Sasha made their job easier by making mistakes.

Personally, I thought her Bolero was much, much better than what I saw at Marshall's. However, the ending was blah, just like it was blah when I saw it live. The music just doesn't lend itself to her traditional footwork creshendo.

There is no doubt in my mind, though, that the ladies results were correct.
 
nubka said:
Now that we have seen Michelle's performance tonight in the Bolero LP, does anyone here think that Sasha could have taken the gold medal IF... she had skated a clean LP? I honestly don't know... I did feel that Sasha's LP had more content to it.
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Yeah, I really think Sasha could've won if she skated cleanly. Compared with Michelle's program, Sasha definitely deserved 6.0s even with the fall; it had much more content and choregraphy. She is such a dynamic skater to watch.

Bolero is still just too empty and doesn't gel with Michelle. It's been empty for the entire season, but at least this latest version had different spins. The beginning of the program is still the only place that had choreography that matched the music. But as long as Michelle stayed on her feet, I knew she would win. But those 6.0s were so undeserved. I knew the judges would lift her up like that. She owns this competition, after all.
 
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SkateFan4Life said:
The judges' marks for Kwan's long program - four 6.0s - clearly indicated that they wanted her to win this championship. And, please excuse me if this sounds like nitpicking (again), but, in my opinion, Michelle did not deserve 6.0s for that long program. It was flawed - the mistake on the lutz and finishing after the end of the music. A string of 5.9s would have been warranted, of course, but not the 6.0s, IMHO.
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Yes, yes, yes. I agree 110%.
 
Without a doubt, Bolero is Kwan's strongest LP since 02. It has more content than Aranjuez or Tosca. There are transitions and extra elements, not tons of them, but they are there and they provide more meat to the program.

I think Bolero is a good vehicle for Kwan, but last night wasn't the best performance of it.

Michelle has improved her spins and with future improvements, she can get Level 2 by Worlds. Her spiral sequence will score level 3 and her footwork will probably get level 2. She has a very good chance at getting positive GOE's on many of her jump elements because of her solid technique. Finally, her components scores, especially for Skating Skills, Performance and Interpretation are bound to be quite high. Less so for Choreography and Transitions, but I don't think these will be bad. And actually, we've all see the trend in scoring under CoP where the components scores hover around the same level.

I have to giggle just a little and roll my eyes at the same time when people declare Kwan's doom under CoP. Reason #1 for this being that Kwan has been declared doomed more times that I can recall and it just gets :laugh: after a bit.

Reason #2 is that the contenders are the contenders. Kwan is among the top skaters in the Worlds and therefore is very much in the mix at Worlds. And she's not the favorite, which I think is a good thing.
 
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