Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

As the title says, how do these top Japanese ladies match up? Specifically, what do you think their strengths and weaknesses are?

Briefly, in my view:

Suguri ~ more artistic and expressive, programs are better choreographed, jumps haven't been as consistent as they were in the past

Onda ~ power-jumping all the way, great height on jumps, but artistry and posture still needs more work and refinement

Arakawa ~ light, ethereal quality about her skating (esp. her jumps, like what Susie Wynne talked about at NHK), but can be a bit inconsistent

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

I don't find anything "light and ethereal" about Shizuka's skating. She is about the same level with Fumie in that aspect, and both are far behind Yuka or Michelle.

I will add some...

Suguri - best spins and best speed among the three.

Arakawa - lack of expression. (Isn't she called "iron mask" by some Japanese fans?)

Onda - protected by Machiko Yamada's influence and her close ties with Noriko Shirota. (j/k)

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

IMO, Suguri is the best out of the three. She has good presentation skills, spins, speed and has good jumping technique. Unfortunately, her jumps are inconsistent this season. Arakawa has a smooth quality about her skating, but sometimes mistakes appear out of nowhere. Onda is mainly held up by her jumping.

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

Arakawa is one of my favorite skaters of all the eligibles. I feel she underwent some kind of transformation between last season and this one where a lot of things came together. I agree that her one bugaboo is consistency, that and her spiral sequences tend to be rushed. But her stroking and ice coverage are gorgeous and powerful, with great soft knees and ankles. And her arms and upper body have flow to match her edges. Plus I love her energy. There is something lighthearted about her personality that I find very engaging.

Onda is my second choice among these three Japanese ladies. Of course she has to work on her presentation, but I don't find it anywhere near as "awful" as some have described it. I just think YO is from the "power and speed" school of presentation, eg, Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Irina Slutskaya, rather than the "balletic" one. She needs to improve her transitions and keep her arms up, but she has a spunky pixie quality to her skating that I love. I just hope they don't try to turn this "high flyer" into a "dying swan" in a misguided effort to make her "artistic." It would be like trying to turn an Elvis Presley into a Placido Domingo.

Fumie: As I've said before, great gams! I love a lot of the individual elements of her skating and I love her personality, but the whole thing just doesn't come together for me. A lot of it is the problem with the posture and use of her upper body and arms. The round shoulders and stiffness take away from the expression and the total body line. Also, she has <strong>got</strong> to straighten her knee and turn out her free leg on her spirals. For someone at her level not to be doing this is just...bad! (Yes, Sarah's bent knee drives me crazy too, but at least hers is turned out )

But like the US ladies, it's so great to have such depth! A lot there to love and be excited about, and the junior ladies are absolute gangbusters!
Rgirl

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

<span style="color:maroon;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:small;">I have yet to be moved one iota by Onda. Can you see yourself sitting in front of the TV moved to tears by her performance? Ever? I am, however, impressed with the explosive power of her jumps.</span>

<span style="color:navy;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:small;">I liked Fumie's skating last year, just lovely. This year, she is off the mark.</span>

<span style="color:teal;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:small;">I am very impressed with Arakawa of late. As I mentioned on another thread, she is the skater Mr. RealtorGal is raving about these days. She's just a notch behind Sasha in his eyes.</span>

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

I've always enjoyed Fumie and think she is almost certinly a future World Champion, but I think Onda has the tech. edge over her. I think Arakawa has great jumps and er, "Good" artistry (bjork is not the best person to imitate ), so overall, I like Fumie, with Arakawa a close second.
Laura

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

I am really impressed with Arakawa, and feel if she trained here in America, she would be able to let her real *star* shine.

With all the Japanese skaters, I see a lot of technical prowess, but the culture doesn't really let them "emote" the way US/Canadian/Russian women do. That shyness or reserve holds them back when interpreting music. I am in no way putting down another culture. I would love to be able to travel in Japan, China, or live in another culture, as I have in the past, but that's impossible.

Everyone fell in love with Kristi and Michelle in part, I think, because of the same humility they were taught and displayed through all the gold medals, and their work ethic is clearly very strong. As asian Americans, though, they grew up in this culture and that has affected their ability to be more free in their skating.

Perhaps someone Japanese or Japanese American could explain much better than I what is different in Japan for women and women/skaters. I have only the merest idea.

I love Fumie's personality, and that colors my view of her skating in a positive way. The deficits/faults rgirl already mentioned bother me, too. I think her stiffness comes across in her Swan peice earlier this season. She doesn't have the freedom in her skating to interpret that music. I can't help but think of the young Oksana, and all the ballerinas I have seen, and Fumie, though a peach, just doesn't have that musicality and depth in her yet. But Best legs in skating?<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

Can't agree with that. I think we need a poll or thread as there will be more than five nominees.

Yoshie, I just hated last year. This year I find her spark and sincere effort to develop some presentation skills more endearing. I was always impressed with Midori's big jumps, and huge smile, and this young lady has some of that spunk. I did love Fumie's skate to Ave Maria, I forgot to mention.

Everyone seems to hate Shizuka's techno swan number with feathery costume, but for some reason I like it together and she can pull it off pretty well. I think it would look best on Nicole Bobek and would love to see her interpret the music, but I think Shizuka has so much going for her. These three ladies may not equal Yuka Sato, but give them time.

Yoshie may surprise us, and I think she is very aggressive, a real player, and also hungry to prove herself. Podium Turino seems her clear goal.

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

RGirl wrote:

"Arakawa is one of my favorite skaters of all the eligibles. I feel she underwent some kind of transformation between last season and this one where a lot of things came together. I agree that her one bugaboo is consistency, that and her spiral sequences tend to be rushed. But her stroking and ice coverage are gorgeous and powerful, with great soft knees and ankles. And her arms and upper body have flow to match her edges. Plus I love her energy. There is something lighthearted about her personality that I find very engaging."

RGirl- I couldn't agree more. This girl has me transfixed. Something about her just makes me unable to take my eyes off her when she skates. Sure, there is room for improvement in her skating, but she is "fresh" to me. Maybe it's because I'm a little over the proclamations that skater X is the World Champion for the next 15 years and OG Medalist for the next 3 games.

Maybe that's what makes me like Arakawa. Her skills seem very subtle to me, much less " Ta Da" like. I think that's what mesmerizes me.

I love the white costume and her program, too.

Fumie doesn't move me yet, I find she tends to be overpowered by her music. And Yoshie, well, I've never been a fan of skaters whose strenth is in the jumps. I like more balance. Hopefully Yoshie will get there and I can become a convert.

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

MMM,
Re Arakawa: High five!
Rgirl

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

I think Onda looks to boyish.

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

<span style="color:fuchsia;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:small;">As some of you know, I am not a huge fan of ladies skating. But when I saw Shizuka's Swan Lake, I thought that was fabulous. Love the costume, love the music, and I think she is a fantastic skater. I hope she does well at Worlds. (and a high five to rgirl and MMM and GBM for liking the costume, too. )

I saw Fumie and Yoshie skate at NC, and I thought they were both great, in different ways. Fumie is very elegant, and Yoshie has great power. They are both very nice and polite.

I agree with whoever said not to turn Yoshie into a "dying swan." No, no one will ever be moved to tears by her performance, she's more of a skater who will make you smile. I hope her coaches let her go with that.

cheers,

Laura </span>

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

<span style="color:blue;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:x-small;">Expression and Japanese skaters... Funny that topic should be mentioned. I have had quite a few Japanese voice students over the years and they were ALL very difficult in that respect. One exercise I did with students would be to call out different emotions as they were singing and I expected them to reflect this in the music, their faces and bodies. With the Japanese students, I could call out HAPPY, SAD, EXCITED, OVERJOYED, DEPRESSED--WHATEVER, and it all looked exactly the same.

In no way is this meant to be a criticism of a culture--heaven forbid I should ever be accused of that. My brother has lived in Japan for many years and we discussed this fact at length several times as part of my effort to help these students develop the emotional side of their music, and he told me he was not surprised at all by what I encountered repeatedly and that this was a cultural issue.</span>

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

Some Japanese fans seem to think Fumie's face has too much expression. Her "poetic" comments on skating are also frowned on by many people there. (Just an impression I got from reading BBS.)

On the other hand, even Japanese fans seem to think Suzie lacks expression. (Thus her "iron mask" moniker. She is also called "Noh mask" which is probably a more common expression. I think only detractors use those monikers.)

BTW, if anyone thinks Fumie and Yoshie are "polite" they probably haven't heard of their war of words. (Yoshie only jumped up and down after Fumie's marks went up at NHK, although I don't think ABC showed this.) Yoshie's bravado has been a popular topic lately as well as Fumie's "self-absorption." It seems that same-country rivalry tends to be nastier (Yagudin/Plushenko, Michelle/Tara, Sarah/Sasha, Suguri/Onda, etc. In some of those cases, it's fans rather than skaters who are nasty to one anohter.) Michelle and Irina can remain good friends probably because they represent different countries...

The Japanese ladies

That's very interesting Rgal, regarding the voice students. It would be really great to hear you sing to us someday.

And here I thought the three were getting along so well. Hmmm, just a puff peice I guess.

Re: The Japanese ladies

<span style="color:fuchsia;font-family:georgia;font-size:small;">Just out of curiosity, did when Yoshie jumped up and down after Fumie's marks, was that because Yoshie had just won? Or had she not skated yet? I can't remember the skating order. (I'm assuming this was NHK?)

They were both very polite at NC. I never saw them together, though, so I don't know how they interact with each other.

Laura </span>

Re: The Japanese ladies

Fumie was the last skater, so you could say Yoshie was jumping up and down because she had just won the title. But given what she had said about Fumie (or didn't say), it may be more than that. I just remembered how Yagudin was criticized for pumping fist over Plushenko's fall at 1998 Worlds.

I didn't see it myself (or Yoshie and Shizuka flashing the victory signs in front of TV camera). So maybe someone who saw the NHK coverage can put all this into context.

Re: The Japanese ladies

<span style="color:maroon;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:x-small;">Fumie and Shizuka have each tasted the victory of a national title and Yoshie is hungry to win one--it makes sense that there would be a LOT of competition and tension between them.</span>

<span style="color:blue;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:xx-small;">GBM, read your private email. </span>

Re: Suguri vs. Onda vs. Arakawa

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It seems that same-country rivalry tends to be nastier (Yagudin/Plushenko, Michelle/Tara, Sarah/Sasha, Suguri/Onda, etc. In some of those cases, it's fans rather than skaters who are nasty to one anohter.)[/quote] AY2006,
ITA with your comment, especially the part about the fans. I saw NHK and there wasn't enough shown to draw any conclusions about Fumie, YO, and Shizuka. But clearly you have more specific info about their competitive relationship and the way the fans feel. Actually, this might make a good thread topic...hmm:smokin:

Anyway, interesting post and welcome to GS.
Rgirl

Culture clash

For those of you confused, and it seems some of you are, here's the difference between China and Japan:

Geography:

China:
BIG country with a billion people. Bordered by many countries, including Russia and Korea.

Japan:
Archipelago with considerably less people. Bordered mostly by whales marked for sushi.

Language:

China:
One of the few pictogram languages still in use. Spoken language is pitch-based.

Japanese:
Borrowed many words from Chinese, including Kanji, but is a distinct language composed of phonetic elements like English. Spoken language can be conveyed without pitches.

WWII:

China:
Got invaded and massacred by the Japanese.

Japan:
Did the masscares.

Religion:

China:
Communism

Japan:
Shintoism - a combination of animism (think pet rocks) and Buddhism

Movies:

China:
Hong Kong cinema has all the violent kung fu stuff.

Japan:
Japanese cartoon, or anime, has all the little girls with big eyes committing various acts of violence in giant robots and/or getting raped by monsters with big tentacles.

Why the people will get mad if you confuse the two:

China:
The Chinese are still a tad miffed over WWII.

Japan:
The Japanese are racial elitists, they consider themselves a superior and distinct race and resent their cultural ties to China.

How to tell which skaters are from where by their names:

China:
Skaters usually have monosyllabic names. Think Pang! And Zhang! And Wang!

Japanese:
Skaters usually have multisyllabic names. The letter L is never used.

The inscrutable Orientals

Sociology! Orientals! My department!

If you think Chinese people are reserved, you have obviously never been to a dim sum restaurant. The noise there is deafening. Even outside of an all-Chinese environment, Chinese folks, particularly those from Hong Kong, are loud and obnoxious. Go to a few tourist traps and you'll find out the hard way, sooner or later. And no, people don't stay expressionless when they're yapping and flapping, not even the Chinese.

So where does this inscrutable Chinese stereotype come from? Probably from misread expression cues (how expressions are conveyed facially vary from culture to culture) and Chinese people being polite. Yes, politeness is still a big deal in Chinese culture, but only to strangers. Politeness in Chinese society is equated with being guarded, since tact really is just self-censorship. That means, if a traditional-esque Chinese person is being polite to you, you guys are not friends! If a traditional-esque Chinese person tells you you smell like crap and you really do, you're family!

The Japanese are a different animal altogether. I may have grown up in Chinese society (Hong Kong to be exact), but I did grow up on Japanese cartoons and video games, which are devastatingly accurate reflections of Japanese culture. The Japanese, as a rule, are extremely polite in public, regardless of familiarity. The Japanese, much more so than the Chinese, have a self-worth that is dependant on public image. For example, Japanese businessmen would stay in a bar and drink until late at night before going home to give people (including his family) the illusion that he's working late.

Displays of emotion in Japanese society is very strictly structured according to gender, age and role (occupational or otherwise). Young people should smile and be happy. Girls should be demure. Older men should be lecherous (don't argue with me, we're talking about the land of used panties vending machines). Great oozing displays of shame are always welcomed after a public failure.

How does all this apply to skating performances? Not very directly in the case of the Chinese, since skating is not considered an artistic endeavor in the country. It's going to take a while before Chinese skaters put together emoting and artistry. Skating is still a new thing in China.

The Japanese, on the other hand, know full well the artistic requirements of skating. The culture puts a great emphasis on packaging, which should translate to their skaters. My remark about appropriate emotional displays apply. The girls can skate to dainty programs. The guys can skate to tragedy. Everybody can skate to something perky. Failure to do so reflects poorly upon the skater's duty to society, and should bring lots of shame.

Oopsie, I almost forgot one very important factor about emotional displays: the individual vs. the society. In both Chinese and Japanese society, when it comes to skating, it's about glorifying the country. Expressing yourself is all very nice and good, as long as it expresses things that reflect correctly on the mothership. This, naturally, cuts off venues for artistry.