Ladies SP from TV - COC

Doggygirl said:

This all makes perfect sense in terms of why the JF may have decided to move Mao up to seniors this year [over Miki Ando], even though she is not Oly eligible. A good longer term plan, if that is indeed the plan. I can't imagine Shiz and Fumie staying in the game after this season (but of course that's up to them!!) And certainly at this point in time, Mao can absolutely hold her own among the "big girls."....

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I was wondering what had happened to Ando, the once and former future "it" girl. Seriously, a few genes for height and weight going up too much must be devastating for these girls who no doubt not only love their sport, but who have also invested so much into it. Plus the probable sense of letting down the family and the country!

Remember when Midori Ito apologized to the entire country of Japan for not having skated better in the SP at the '92 Olympics? The heartbreak! I can't remember where she ended up after the short but I know it was not as high as expected because she attempted the 3Axel and fell. So sad. But in the long, after she'd missed her first attempted 3Axel and 3 minutes into the program nailed her second try, man, that is one stupendous Olympic memory.

OT, but does anybody know how Midori's health is these days?

Rgirl

Rgirl, you are in fine fettle this morning, but what are you picking on me for? Here is my position on Irina's scores (post #12 above)

Mathman said:

What is the argument about? We are all agreed -- friends of Irina and foes alike -- that this was the most outstanding short program performance in the (modern ) history of skating. Why shouldn't she get scores that match?

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Modern = after 2004 (or any time after Sasha got that 197 that blows a hole in my case, LOL).

Anyway, I am on the side of the Angels (Irina = "peace" in Greek) on this one. I never said anything about Irina's scores being higher than she deserved, or that there was a conspiracy to hold her up and hand her the gold medal.

When I said that I don't think there is anything that Sasha, Michelle, Shizuka or anyone else can do to match the scores that Irina is putting up, I am looking at the list of point values for the CoP. Obviously Irina can screw up, but that's a separate question. The question is, is it realistic to hope that Michelle, for instance, can raise her spins to a level 4, work in a triple/triple, get fancier connecting steps, etc. -- and if she does, and you add up all the little .5s and .7s that she will gain by doing so, will that be enough to match Irina's point total? (Or Sasha or Shizuka.)

...you'll say, "Because the judges will never give any of them anywhere near the PCS scores they gave Irina."

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How can you put such silly words in my mouth, the opposite of what I have said about ten times on these several Irina threads?

If they skate as well as Irina, they will get high scores, too. So far this season, no one has.

MM

Rgirl - Let's agree to disagree on Tara. Whether it's 98 Ladies or SLC Pairs nothing will change anyone's mind.

Joe

Mathman said:

Rgirl, you are in fine fettle this morning, but what are you picking on me for? Here is my position on Irina's scores (post #12 above)



Modern = after 2004 (or any time after Sasha got that 197 that blows a hole in my case, LOL).

Anyway, I am on the side of the Angels (Irina = "peace" in Greek) on this one. I never said anything about Irina's scores being higher than she deserved, or that there was a conspiracy to hold her up and hand her the gold medal.

When I said that I don't think there is anything that Sasha, Michelle, Shizuka or anyone else can do to match the scores that Irina is putting up, I am looking at the list of point values for the CoP. Obviously Irina can screw up, but that's a separate question. The question is, is it realistic to hope that Michelle, for instance, can raise her spins to a level 4, work in a triple/triple, get fancier connecting steps, etc. -- and if she does, and you add up all the little .5s and .7s that she will gain by doing so, will that be enough to match Irina's point total? (Or Sasha or Shizuka.)

How can you put such silly words in my mouth, the opposite of what I have said about ten times on these several Irina threads?

If they skate as well as Irina, they will get high scores, too. So far this season, no one has.

MM

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Ok, based on all of that, I'll be sending all the gold medals to Irina. Everyone else I'll just draw out of a hat for medals. I don't really believe that anyway.

I am not one of those "all" who think Irina had some kind of spectacular SP for the ages. I have always liked Irina, but she is boring me to no end this year. And Mao Asada was cute. And Shizuka finally showed up. And I love Elena as well.

However all this catch foot spin/spiral crap is starting to wear on me. I long to be able to see one skater go there an entire SP and/or LP without catching their blade. I know it's all about the points, but Irina was a half beat behind her LP music and finished a half beat behind it. She may skate fast, have amazing jumps and can Bielmann until the cows come home, but what she doesn't have is the matching luggage to go with that traveling. She's got no musical connectivity in these programs. She has more in the SP, but hey, I didn't like it either so whatever.

And despite what some people are saying out there in figure skating land, Irina does not do well with flamenco/Latin flavored music. She just doesn't fit it although I loved her outfit and the beautiful red color. To me, she's going to win the OGM because she's doing catch foot spins/spirals everywhere.

Plus I couldn't believe Shizuka did the same spins either. So maybe it's time that someone out there, maybe Michelle or Sasha, start overusing the Y-spin which, I believe, gives the same Level as the Bielmann. Can you do a Y-spiral? So watching Irina's LP last night made me yawn. Watching Divakawa and Elena at least perked me up.

ETA: FWIW, I didn't like Tara's program in 98 either but I'd have to get mean to say why, so I just won't.

Realistic, you didn't like Irina's short program? I thought it was one of the best perormances of her career, along with her Worlds LP.

I may have to eat my words when we see Sasha this weekend, but so far Irina is the one who has put it on the ice. For the rest, we can only wait and see.

Mathman

I liked Irina's short program as well. So clean and explosive. Last year's SP was more playful and musical, but this one really packs a punch! In fact, all of the ladies' shown on ESPN skated well. I even enjoyed Liashenko, 'bird chirps' and all, and am starting to appreciate Maksim Mrvica's music. And Mao Asada as 'Happy Carmen' was quite refreshing.

realistic - Thank god, there is someone besides me who is not overwhelmed with little girls dressing up like mommie.

As to all those yawning spins. Check out Czisny. Can't wait to see her against Irina in the final. The classic spiral returns!!!!!

Joe

Spin wise, I think Alissa beats Irina.
But overall, can Alissa really compete with Irina? Alissa's score at Canada was so much lower than Irina's at China.

"Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera." Speak for yourself! If there's a "philosophy of GS" other than the rules set down by the administrator and mods, I want nooooo part of it. I'll decide for myself, thanks.

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IIRC Joesitz has been consistently posting about skating to the essence of the opera and not the story, that made an impression on me, and so I followed up on that train of thought. Yes, I speak for myself, and I have deleted / edited that in my post # 18.

I think I would have preferred some essence of the character of "Carmen" in her skating. At any rate, at least they were matched in terms of age and "Carmen" as a subject also reflected their ages

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Well, I have no problem with the essence of the character and matched in age when it comes to opera music interpretation on ice. But since Mao in this case is skating to the music and there is no libretto, I can imagine Carmen as an archetype of a seductress, and Mao seduces with her cuteness and wit just like Despina from Cosi fan tutte. IMO, skating to music w/o words still gives me the option of not thinking about age matching. Since you brought it up, IMO when a 15 y/o Cohen (who was shaped like a 10 y/o at the time) skated to the words of One Fne Day, that left no option but to think of the meaning of the words, that Madame Butterfly wanted to jump Pinkerton’s bones and make love. IMO the Un Bel Di program from Cohen was

Since Asada skated to "Carmen" I'd say that qualifies talk about anybody who ever skated to it Now try to relax

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IMO, Cohen’s interpretation of Carmen is the most boring among senior lady skaters, she was not skating to the essence of the character or the music. I have been totally relax, and staying on topic on #18. rgirl whatever happen to your willingness to "suck it up" afterall you are the originator of the "suck it up" campaign.

And yes, Gez, we've known for a long time that for you it wasn't, "The Olys are coming," to quote Joe, but that it was "Asada is coming!"

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"we"??? didn't you dish out in #19, that each poster should only speak for himself/ herself .

I dare ya to go comment on my post in the "COC Ladies LP on TV" thread. IMO, what's bad for Mao's "Carmen" is good for her "Clara.”

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I haven’t watched the tape of LP yet, I may go to the LP thread or I may not, what is the big deal with such histrionics about daring me to comment on your post over there . In #18, I was posting Shine’s comments on #6, when I post on #18, I haven’t read through your massive production on this thread yet, sometimes I do not read in chronological order. Now I see, why ya thought I was commenting on your post, because I quoted “wink and wiggle”. Sigh …I saw that from Joesitz's #9.

Several people agreed with my description, but, oh, sigh! Am I forever to be the lone GSer who gets called out ..

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In some way I agree with your term wink and wiggle too, although at first I thought Joesitz was the originator of wink and wiggle. I said Kat’s wink and wiggle oozes with sexual powers, and Mao’s wink and wiggle oozes with wit. :scratch: so how on earth can you went off topic, and twisted that into “lone Gser gets call out by gezando..”

#1 Rgirl Basher, the Great Gezando?

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I was staying on topic, talking about COC sp, I was even accidentally agreeing with your term, how does that equate to bashing you? Can you be more dramatic and colorful, talk about bashing. OTOH, IMO when a poster (were you that poster? ) told Jimmy Hoffa here at GS “For a b!t ^h (all 5 letters spelled out) you are consistent, I give you that” Now that is bashing!!!!

People love me….

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How is that relevant to the topic of COC sp? I already edited / deleted " it is a GS philosophy" from #18. Now will you take your own medicine and relax.

Back to topic: By coincidence both Irina and Arakawa chose pieces of piano music transcribed for symphony. Irina's sp is growing on me. I still think this symphonic version of totentanz (derived from Dies Irae) is boring music, but no one can pull it off like Irina. She accomplished it with her amazing athletic power. Arakawa made the symphonic version of Chopin's PC #1 work well, althought I still prefer Lucindah's piano version.

Mathman said:

Realistic, you didn't like Irina's short program? I thought it was one of the best perormances of her career, along with her Worlds LP.

I may have to eat my words when we see Sasha this weekend, but so far Irina is the one who has put it on the ice. For the rest, we can only wait and see.

Mathman

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Sorry, MM, ...no, I'm not sorry. I don't like either of her programs. I like her SP better than her LP but that's not saying much at all. And while I will give her credit for having a dynamic SP, I don't have to like it. Now, her Worlds LP...HOO RAH! Yep, liked that one. But Irina's programs this year just leave me :sheesh:

And as far as Sasha's LP goes, after seeing it, I was highly disappointed with the cuts of the music. I loved her R&J exhibition, thought it was well suited for her, wanted it to be an LP at some point, and then she goes and gets those scrambly cuts. Whatever. I'd like to see her SP since I understand it's a new one, right?

joesitz, that's one of the reasons I didn't like Tara, but the others are so mean that even I surprise myself.

Tara, imo, did do the little dahling skate and together with the consecutive loop jumps won the contest. I agree to this. There were faults, of course, but the joie de patinage had to shine over Kwan's reluctance to go all out. But this is a bygone era. My use of Mao, whom I see as a bright talented kid on the horizon as compared to Tara was the delightful and enjoyable skate she had at COC. Who says Carmen has to be sexy. Carmen was a business woman first and foremost. How does one portray that on skates? Carmen was once a little girl who had dreams, too. Mao had that.

Bizet's music, imo, can be interpreted in many ways. Not necessary to go with the opera. Can you imagine skating to Mozart's Divertimento No. l5 and looking for the book he didn't write? Mozart's non opera music is skateable, imo, but there are no skaters of that maturity to do them justice. One can feel music, but can one express that in dance and skating? Not easy. Much easier to throw in a dagger at the end of Un Bel Di; or flap your arms for Swan Lake not to mention wearing a dumb costume to show the story the skater can't really feel.

Joe

Mozart

Michelle Kwan, with help from Lori Nichols, could have skated to Mozart. She has the depth to pull it off. She has alot going on under the surface I think. I try not to think of what might have been.

Joesitz said:

Can you imagine skating to Mozart's Divertimento No. l5 and looking for the book he didn't write? Mozart's non opera music is skateable, imo, but there are no skaters of that maturity to do them justice. One can feel music, but can one express that in dance and skating? Not easy. Much easier to throw in a dagger at the end of Un Bel Di; or flap your arms for Swan Lake not to mention wearing a dumb costume to show the story the skater can't really feel.

Joe

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Joe, I thought you didn't expect skaters to interpret pieces like this????

(now, if you want to diss some "arm flapping" then count me in!! )

DG

Can you imagine skating to Mozart's Divertimento No. l5 and looking for the book he didn't write? Mozart's non opera music is skateable, imo, but there are no skaters of that maturity to do them justice. One can feel music, but can one express that in dance and skating? Not easy. Much easier to throw in a dagger at the end of Un Bel Di; or flap your arms for Swan Lake not to mention wearing a dumb costume to show the story the skater can't really feel.

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Well, thanks mentioning Mozart, I am listening to WAM's divertimento #15 K287 as I am typing, it is a lengthy 40 min piece. I think WAM's opera, vocal and instrumental pieces are very skateable. I don't understand why choreographers don't try Mozart often. Off the top of my head only Fumie, had tried it recently. Initially Lori used the G minor symphony #40 + PC #23, then later in the season Lori switched the G minor symphony with the more light hearted eine kliene nacht music. I agree Mozart is not easy to perform for musicians and skaters. I believe many concert pianists stated that Mozart's PC are the most difficult. It is much easier for them to perform something from e.g. Liszt, just pound and beat the crap out of the piano. For the longest time I wish Michelle will someday skate to Der Holle Rache (queen of night aria) There was a time I wished Hughes will skate to Laudate Dominum from Mozart's solemn vespers of the confessor. I also wish Fumie will skate to the first adagio movememt (third movement) from WAM's gran partita K361. Fumie is so ethereal, I think she will do justice to it.

Mathman said:

Rgirl, you are in fine fettle this morning, but what are you picking on me for? Here is my position on Irina's scores (post #12 above)

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I picked on you because I wanted a definition of "modern history of skating," which you kindly and politely supply as:

Mathman said:

Modern = after 2004 (or any time after Sasha got that 197 that blows a hole in my case, LOL).

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Mathman said:

Anyway, I am on the side of the Angels (Irina = "peace" in Greek) on this one. I never said anything about Irina's scores being higher than she deserved, or that there was a conspiracy to hold her up and hand her the gold medal.

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I never said you said any of those things. Just wanted the defination as stated above.

Mathman said:

When I said that I don't think there is anything that Sasha, Michelle, Shizuka or anyone else can do to match the scores that Irina is putting up, I am looking at the list of point values for the CoP. Obviously Irina can screw up, but that's a separate question. The question is, is it realistic to hope that Michelle, for instance, can raise her spins to a level 4, work in a triple/triple, get fancier connecting steps, etc. -- and if she does, and you add up all the little .5s and .7s that she will gain by doing so, will that be enough to match Irina's point total? (Or Sasha or Shizuka.)

How can you put such silly words in my mouth, the opposite of what I have said about ten times on these several Irina threads?

If they skate as well as Irina, they will get high scores, too. So far this season, no one has.

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Okay, my bad for saying you would say they'd never get Irina's PCS scores. But still "no possibility"? For Shizuka and Sasha, I think they have a chance of making their programs equal to Irina's base score, especially Shizuka with her command of multiple jump combos, more flexible and as far as I know uninjured lower back for use in more Beillmans, and the mother of packing programs with point value, Tarasova as her coach--not to mention Shizuka's magnificent skating, which we saw in Dortmund '04 and which, after her COC LP I think is still there but was probably just tuckered out from all the recent changes and travelling.

True, so far no one has skated up to Irina, but Shizza's problems I've just discussed, we've only seen Sasha at Campbell's, haven't seen Michelle and won't see her till Nats says Team Kwan, and who knows what points lie in the programs as yet unseen or not yet choreographed into other skaters' programs?

Besides, you never say anything I can pick on, you reasonable b***h. So I have to take 'em where I can get 'em.

Rgirl

kyla2 said:

Michelle Kwan, with help from Lori Nichols, could have skated to Mozart. She has the depth to pull it off. She has alot going on under the surface I think. I try not to think of what might have been.

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Kwan doesn't need a story behind the music. She makes her own story to the music. Kwan has body language.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Rgirl - Let's agree to disagree on Tara. Whether it's 98 Ladies or SLC Pairs nothing will change anyone's mind.

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Moot point. I don't want to change your mind about Tara. I just wanted to state my opinion why I thought Tara won the '98 OGM.

Though there is one thing: "Mommie dresses"? When the heck did Tara wear "mommie dresses"? For real question.

As for SLC Pairs, same deal, except I hope you learn to count how long 20 seconds is soon.

One thousand one...

Just kidding. Other than my question about "mommie dresses," agreed.:agree:

Rgirl

Rgirl said:

"Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera," [quote Gezando] Speak for yourself! If there's a "philosophy of GS" other than the rules set down by the administrator and mods, I want nooooo part of it. I'll decide for myself, thanks.

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Gezando said:

IIRC Joesitz has been consistently posting about skating to the essence of the opera and not the story, that made an impression on me, and so I followed up on that train of thought. Yes, I speak for myself, and I have deleted / edited that in my post # 18.

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Wow, you did go and relax! That's great!

Gezando said:

IMO, Cohen’s interpretation of Carmen is the most boring among senior lady skaters, she was not skating to the essence of the character or the music. I have been totally relax, and staying on topic on #18. rgirl whatever happen to your willingness to "suck it up" afterall you are the originator of the "suck it up" campaign.

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What am I not "sucking up"? You love to bash Sasha; I say, "Have at her." All this started when a few people--you can find their posts--stated their less than favorable opinion about Mao Asada and/or her "Carmen" SP, which is their right according to the GS rules and regs. So who among us did not "suck it up"?

Rgirl said:

And yes, Gez, we've known for a long time that for you it wasn't, "The Olys are coming," to quote Joe, but that it was "Asada is coming!"

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Gezando said:

"we"??? didn't you dish out in #19, that each poster should only speak for himself/ herself.

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Gez, you are absolutely right that what I was using as the "royal we" was completely unclear in light of my previous remarks. Thus you can see for yourself how I have edited my former "we" in that sentence. Thank you for pointing it out.

But just to be clear, I didn't "dish out in #19 that each poster should only speak for himself/herself." That would be speaking for other people. I said, "I'll speak for myself, thank you.":agree:

Yadda, yadda.

Rgirl said:

I dare ya to go comment on my post in the "COC Ladies LP on TV" thread. IMO, what's bad for Mao's "Carmen" is good for her "Clara.”

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Gez--you left out the emoticon after Clara. I'd appreciate it if you'd quote my sentences as they are written, including emoticons. I use them for a reason. Of course you don't have to quote the entire post--that goes for everyone re my posts, which is all I can speak to. God help us all if we have to start quoting my entire posts!

Gezando said:

I haven’t watched the tape of LP yet, I may go to the LP thread or I may not, what is the big deal with such histrionics about daring me to comment on your post over there .

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Now, see. With the smiley face, there's nothing "histrionic" about it at all. Besides, even Mathman said I was "in fine fettle" that morning. There's nothing histrionic about being in fine fettle. I was just trying, yet again, to tap into your sense of humor, to lighten things up. Three and a half years of trying to see if you have a sense of humor and still no luck.

More yadda, yadda. BS, BS. Still no sense of humor from Gez.

Gez, see your interpretation of my joke with Jimmy Hoffa. If JH has ever had a problem with it since the two years ago or so when I wrote it, he's never said anything to me. Plus he strikes me as someone who has always been perfectly capable of taking care of himself. That's what I mean when I say to you "try to relax." But it does make me love you all the more to know you still keep files on me.

Rgirl said:

People love me….

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Now, Gez, I know you didn't know about my request for you to quote my entire sentences, including emoticons, when you did this, so you get a freebie. In any case, I think this definitely needs some context, unless you're trying to make it look as if I'm saying something I'm not, which I'm sure you would never do. (Cough, cough--excuse me.) I'll use the minimum context: Rgirl said, "Am I forever to be the lone GSer who gets called out by our Resident Cartman and #1 Rgirl Basher, the Great Gezando? Oh, I do hope so! Considering the source, I like it. Never give up on me, Gez! People love me for it! " Quite a difference, IMHO.

Gezando said:

Now will you take your own medicine and relax.

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See my explanation and quote of Mathman's "fine fettle" comment about me above. I'm not only relaxed, but I'm also having a grand time, especially now that at I know you still love me. Yes, you do! You try to hide it, but you love me, just as I do you!

Rgirl

Joesitz said:

Kwan doesn't need a story behind the music. She makes her own story to the music. Kwan has body language.

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ITA. And let's hope Michelle's body language is exceptionally fluent at Nats, Olys, and Worlds--and also includes numbers.

Rgirl

Doggygirl said:

Joe, I thought you didn't expect skaters to interpret pieces like this????

(now, if you want to diss some "arm flapping" then count me in!! )

DG

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DG - How many Carmen's I've watched on skates is more than I ever saw at the Opera. The story is a potboiler and the outcome does not shock as you turn 14. It was refreshing to watch Mao ignore the story line for me.

Carmen for men is another tiresome book to read. Escamillio was an egotist and one never feels he is truly in love with Carmen so her murder is insignifant in his life as he enters the bull ring where he delights the crowd. So many boys who use the Toreador confuse it with a warrior. It's just a star on stage.

I'd like to see a man skate the Don Jose part. - Not easy for them to show the jealousy, the madness, the need to kill, and the heartbreak.

Joe