Boy, Was I Wrong!
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IcyBallerina
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But would changing the rules really help?
If the bielmann was rewarded with fewer points, the use of it would decline. But skaters would only find something new to rack up the points. "What fresh torture is this?" Those combinations of positions which are easiest to do while earning the greatest number of points will become widespread and commonplace, because EVERYONE wants those points, and will do any skating maneuver imaginable to get them. If someone else does it first or better, who cares? "Good enough" becomes the credo.
I hope that skating doesn't become like rhythmic gymnastics- while it is beautiful, all the top-level performers do the same things, because that's what it takes to get the scores. Even worse, the rankings are completely fixed by influential coaches promoting their favorites. Even many people involved in the sport think it's a tragedy.
If the bielmann was rewarded with fewer points, the use of it would decline. But skaters would only find something new to rack up the points. "What fresh torture is this?" Those combinations of positions which are easiest to do while earning the greatest number of points will become widespread and commonplace, because EVERYONE wants those points, and will do any skating maneuver imaginable to get them. If someone else does it first or better, who cares? "Good enough" becomes the credo.
I hope that skating doesn't become like rhythmic gymnastics- while it is beautiful, all the top-level performers do the same things, because that's what it takes to get the scores. Even worse, the rankings are completely fixed by influential coaches promoting their favorites. Even many people involved in the sport think it's a tragedy.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Tenorguy said:
tenorguy - I can't call shoot the duck (origin long before figure skating started) or hydroblading (it's refined name) as being innovative. they've been around for decades. Check out the commedians in the original Hollywood Ice Revue.
Sure: favorites: beautiful simple camel spins a la Butryskaya; Multi rotating jumps where the 1st rotation is slow and the remaining are fast a la Saboknik (sp)
Least favorites: Bielman spirals and spins. Cantolevers, hydoblading, shoot the ducks unless there is a reason for them other than scoring points.
As for Dance. Latin dancing is not exotic. It's quite popular in New York and other places where the latino populations are large. At every very high school prom in the US, there is plenty of merengue, cha cha, mambo regardless of ethnic background.
It seems to me that they are negligible in Eastern Europe. Eastern europeans tend to think of Sheherazade(sp) as the key to anything that is not European. JMO
Joe
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- Sep 10, 2005
Word. Wordy McWord of the Clan McWord, actually. I just got some T&D tapes and I had to shut them off because I wasn't getting anything done--I was getting mesmerized by watching a 1983 compulsory dance, for heaven's sake. B&A I find cute, N&K dramatic, but after watching T&D I weep for my sport. If you want to be a pairs skater, be a pairs skater. If you want to dance, DANCE. It doesn't have to be boring. International Ballroom isn't boring. A bit hyper at times, if anything (and let us not discuss the sluty costumes in Latin.)
ITA about the grimacing. Constipated =/= drama.
I don't have a problem with a Biellman that's done with some speed, good form, and changes of edge. I just get tired of seeing bad ones. I agree Alissa's is very good, especially in spins.
Maybe since so many are doing them, they'll rethink giving so many points as a "difficult" element....
Also, I was thinking about Van der Perrin the other day. Does the fact that he tracks his jumps increase the difficulty of the element, or is it just considered an aberation? If I'm not mistaken, Griazev also tracks his spins.
Joesitz, you would be the one to ask, I think.
Maybe since so many are doing them, they'll rethink giving so many points as a "difficult" element....
Also, I was thinking about Van der Perrin the other day. Does the fact that he tracks his jumps increase the difficulty of the element, or is it just considered an aberation? If I'm not mistaken, Griazev also tracks his spins.
Joesitz, you would be the one to ask, I think.
Thanks, Mathman, for reposting the photos Jaana originally did. Obviously I missed those. Actually, in these photos, Daria looks about an inch or two shorter than Katia.
Heyang I also like your point that the Biellman is something that, depending on your anatomy, you either can or cannot do. It's kind of like giving some of the points to your parents if you can do one.
Speaking of anatomy, Irina has slightly hyperflexed knees. She couldn't fully straighten them without breaking them. Nevertheless, it's true that Irina does not have an "A" level Biellman position. In the spins I'd give the position a "B" and in the spirals, a "C." However, her Biellman spins are very fast and go both forward and back, which is pretty groovy IMO.
I just watched my COC tape of Irina's Biellman spin and while she doesn't have anywhere near the "fold" in the lower back that allows the free leg to be raised up until it's almost straight, IMO it's also not nearly as bad as the photo provided by Mafke. In that photo it looks as if Irina hasn't reached her full position yet.
Now I realize the upcoming photo was taken in 1998, before Irina became an old married lady, without all the flexibility she had back then. But just for comparison's sake--since it's not going to change anybody's mind anyway
--try this site and scroll down to the photo of Irina's Biellman.
http://www.leigh-i-am.com/slute8.shtml
And to think, I just started this thread to 'fess up to some recent blunders. Ya never know where a thread's gonna go.
Rgirl
You make excellent points, IcyBallerina. I'm afraid that with any COP system, unless many variations on non-jump elements are ranked as Level 4, is going to go the way of rhythmic gymnastics. Another option, however, would be to not rank the non-jump elements at all and just give them a GOE. For example, an exquisite Dorothy Hamill blurred scratch spin would get a higher GOE than a crummy Biellman.IcyBallerina said:
Heyang I also like your point that the Biellman is something that, depending on your anatomy, you either can or cannot do. It's kind of like giving some of the points to your parents if you can do one.
Speaking of anatomy, Irina has slightly hyperflexed knees. She couldn't fully straighten them without breaking them. Nevertheless, it's true that Irina does not have an "A" level Biellman position. In the spins I'd give the position a "B" and in the spirals, a "C." However, her Biellman spins are very fast and go both forward and back, which is pretty groovy IMO.
I just watched my COC tape of Irina's Biellman spin and while she doesn't have anywhere near the "fold" in the lower back that allows the free leg to be raised up until it's almost straight, IMO it's also not nearly as bad as the photo provided by Mafke. In that photo it looks as if Irina hasn't reached her full position yet.
Now I realize the upcoming photo was taken in 1998, before Irina became an old married lady, without all the flexibility she had back then. But just for comparison's sake--since it's not going to change anybody's mind anyway
--try this site and scroll down to the photo of Irina's Biellman.http://www.leigh-i-am.com/slute8.shtml
And to think, I just started this thread to 'fess up to some recent blunders. Ya never know where a thread's gonna go.
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Icenine (I love your signature name- I think of baseball team on iceicenine said:
)I'm not sure what you mean by 'track'? If you mean 'spot' as in the ballet term, then it would seem that v d Perren and Griazev had quite a bit of ballet training before they began to skate and retained the 'spot' nuance.
There is a minute fraction of a second when a dancer spots. I believe the move was concocted for the dancer to ensure he continues to face the audience on a procenium stage. (just a guess). Figure Skating makes use of the oval arena where the audience encircles that type of stage, and thus, no spotting is necessary, but having worked in a 'Round' once, I soon began to realize that you play up to crowd you are facing. Immature skaters can not do this - it is not easy. (One never feels that Kwan has turned her back on you when watching.)
I haven't noticed Griazev's spins that much except I see them as being solid. I will look closer in the future. v.d.Perren does spot the jumps and while I enjoy the nuance, I believe it keeps him from executing a quad. His choice.
Now if track is spot, then the above is what I can say. If not, please explain.
Cheers - Joe
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- Mar 22, 2004
Rgirl said:Heyang
Speaking of anatomy, Irina has slightly hyperflexed knees. She couldn't fully straighten them without breaking them. Nevertheless, it's true that Irina does not have an "A" level Biellman position. In the spins I'd give the position a "B" and in the spirals, a "C." However, her Biellman spins are very fast and go both forward and back, which is pretty groovy IMO.
Now I realize the upcoming photo was taken in 1998, before Irina became an old married lady, without all the flexibility she had back then. But just for comparison's sake--since it's not going to change anybody's mind anyway
http://www.leigh-i-am.com/slute8.shtml
Rgirl
Random notes:
True some skaters can do a classic Biellman, most can't, some can do an approximation. If anything I prefer Irina's spiral position Biellman to her spin, the position that she can get looks better in a spiral than a spin (for me, ymmv).
This picture you linked to is a better position than the one I linked to, but still a B at best (maybe a B+) She's still not holding the blade with both hands, but with one hand and her hand holding her wrist and the position looks a little grotesque rather than graceful (the picture of Krieg I linked to is also a little grotesque with her head beant so far back)
I'd harp less on Irina's Biellman position if she didn't use it so often, which she wouldn't of course if it wasn't valued so highly by COP (very mistakenly IMHO).
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- Jul 26, 2003
Daria Timoshenko was able to do a true Biellmann on both sides. I know Karademir of Turkey (who trains in Canada) can do one to one side, but I can't remember if she can to the other. Now, Yan Liu does a lovely one, at least sometimes.76olympics said:
See this thread for links to some more Biellmanns:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=130818#post130818
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=130818#post130818
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- Jul 11, 2003
Apparenty, from the posts we've been reading, the Bielman spin can only be done by generic flexible bodies. My question to all you fans: Should skaters who do not have the generic flexible bodies discontinue competing since multiple Bielman positions bring in lots of scoring points and put others without that natural flexibility at a huge disadvantage? Remember, all skaters' bodies are equal in all elements except for the Bielman.
It could be a way of eliminating a number of skaters from competitions.
Joe
It could be a way of eliminating a number of skaters from competitions.
Joe
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Not all skaters are genetically capable of doing a true spread eagle. Does that mean they should not be allowed to compete?
(Well, it may mean they won't get chosen for the top synchro teams if enough skaters try out who can do all the moves the choreographers want.)
(Well, it may mean they won't get chosen for the top synchro teams if enough skaters try out who can do all the moves the choreographers want.)
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- Jul 11, 2003
It reminds me of Ballanchine who changed the way little ballerinas are chosen for the company. He insisted on short torsos and long legs. Height was not a factor but the proportion of torso to legs was.
A lot of little ballerinas are still crying because that body type is now in all the major ballet companies.
Spread Eagles are not that point heavy. Are they?
Joe
A lot of little ballerinas are still crying because that body type is now in all the major ballet companies.
Spread Eagles are not that point heavy. Are they?
Joe
Spread eagles only count as transitions. Doing them into or out of jumps or spins may also increase the GOE of those elements.
Biellmanns are one option out of many for difficult positions in spins and spirals. They do not by themselves increase point values, but they do contribute to higher levels and thus higher points for those elements.
(For a change-foot combination spin, though, it's necessary to have more than one difficult position and more than one feature even to reach level 2, so just adding a Biellmann to a simple combo spin will still leave it as level 1.)
Biellmanns are one option out of many for difficult positions in spins and spirals. They do not by themselves increase point values, but they do contribute to higher levels and thus higher points for those elements.
(For a change-foot combination spin, though, it's necessary to have more than one difficult position and more than one feature even to reach level 2, so just adding a Biellmann to a simple combo spin will still leave it as level 1.)
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- Sep 10, 2005
Joesitz said:
Suddenly, my weird obsession with Ballanchine becomes clear (besides the fact that Edward Gorey adored him and I adore Gorey.) Never heard it explained flat-out like that, but that's my body type to a t--I have in fact an unusually short torso (an inch off what standard clothing patterns say I should have, nape to waist) and very long legs for my height. And for whipping around some turns and twizzles (which I just basically taught myself) it's actually rather a plus. Ballanchine choreographed for bodies that I see as normal. Explains a heck of a lot.
Can't do a Bielmann, though. Catchfoot spiral positions, yes, but my knees and hips simply don't bend that way.
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- Jul 11, 2003
julietvalcouer said:
Juliet - get thee to the american school of ballet and audition for the summer classes. One has to actually audition to get into that school.
btw, who is Edward Gorey?
Don't worry about the Bielman. Ballet lives. The Bielman which every ballerina could do if they skated is more for Cirque du Soleil.
Joe
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