Cohen's beauty and polish not appreciated?

temperboy27 · Aug 10, 2006

Is there anybody else who thinks Cohen is not fully appreciated for her beautiful and exquisite skating by international judges? Nobody has more perfect positions, more elegant movement, and cleaner lines then Cohen. The judges dont seem to recognize it though and simply resort to counting jumps. Her failure to win a World or Olympic Gold has alot to do with this flawed philosophy of scoring.

blackrose050 · Aug 10, 2006

temperboy27 said:
Is there anybody else who thinks Cohen is not fully appreciated for her beautiful and exquisite skating by international judges? Nobody has more perfect positions, more elegant movement, and cleaner lines then Cohen. The judges dont seem to recognize it though and simply resort to counting jumps. Her failure to win a World or Olympic Gold has alot to do with this flawed philosophy of scoring.

I think she is most definitely appreciated. She wouldn't be as successful as she is if she weren't. She won Olympic silver. That's pretty darn good.

The problem is, she has to actually land the JUMPS, too.

temperboy27 · Aug 10, 2006

I dont dispute that she has to land the jumps, the thing I take issue with is if she only misses 1 or 2 jumps the judges look at that as an excuse to keep her from winning, and overlooking the many extremely beautiful things she does to compensate for that 1 or 2 mistake.

chuckm · Aug 10, 2006

temperboy27 said:
Is there anybody else who thinks Cohen is not fully appreciated for her beautiful and exquisite skating by international judges? Nobody has more perfect positions, more elegant movement, and cleaner lines then Cohen. The judges dont seem to recognize it though and simply resort to counting jumps. Her failure to win a World or Olympic Gold has alot to do with this flawed philosophy of scoring.

Perfect positions, elegant movement and clean lines count for only so much under the CoP system. Jumping counts, too, and Sasha hasn't quite mastered that part of figure skating.

temperboy27 said:
I dont dispute that she has to land the jumps, the thing I take issue with is if she only misses 1 or 2 jumps the judges look at that as an excuse to keep her from winning, and overlooking the many extremely beautiful things she does to compensate for that 1 or 2 mistake.

CoP is a cumulative scoring system. Skaters get points for all the moves they complete successfully, and extra points for those they complete especially well. Sasha is well compensated in the technical marks for her great spins and spiral sequences, but she loses points on her jumps. The judges can only give her technical points for what she actually accomplishes on the ice. Her superb spins and spirals, for which she receives maximum credit, can't compensate for what she doesn't deliver. Sasha would get higher technical scores and probably win everything in sight if she was able to jump consistently, but she can't.

OTOH, IMO the judges have often over-compensated Sasha in the PCS scores to make up for her technical mistakes. It seems ridiculous to me that Sasha received 7.64 in Performance / Execution for her Worlds FS where she landed only 3 clean triple jumps; her performance was a mishmash of wobbly and barely saved jumps followed by a fall.

Mathman · Aug 10, 2006

To me it's a toss-up whether the ISU judging system favors Sasha or works against her.

As far as jumps are concerned, a triple flip is a triple flip and it's worth 5.5 points. If you fall, you lose -3 GOE and -1 fall deduction and you end up with only 1.5 points for the element.

That's just how it is. It has nothing to do with whether the judges appreciate your elegance and artistry or not.

On the other hand, the judges absolutely love her presentation skills. She gets uniformly out of sight Program Component Scores across the board (Skating Skills, Transitions, Interpretation, Choreography -- everything), pretty much independently of whether she skates well technically or not.

In the Olympics her presentation marks held her up into second place (justly, in my opinion) despite two bad falls, while at worlds she got equally high PCSs despite a lack-luster "going-though-the-motions" effort.

So I would say, yes, the judges love her, but (like every skater) she still has to deliver the goods.

MM

attyfan · Aug 10, 2006

The fact that Sasha places as well as she does when she makes more mistakes than other skaters tells me that the judges do give great weight to her other elements.

Tonichelle · Aug 10, 2006

As a Sasha Fan I have to agree that she is very much appreciated for her artistry by the international judges... she had a less than impressive free skate at the olys and she came out with a silver when she herself didn't expect any medal at all...

76olympics · Aug 10, 2006

I think the judges have indicated many times that they would score her out the roof under COP if she had two clean programs; Sasha just hasn't been able to get there . Maybe, as with Paul Wylie, it will happen if she decides to continue ( and she already has a more illustrious competitive record internationally than he did before 1992.)

R.D. · Aug 10, 2006

temperboy27 said:
The judges dont seem to recognize it though and simply resort to counting jumps.

Not sure I agree. If so she would have been FOURTH at the Olympics (behind Irina and Suguri) and likely much lower at worlds. In fact I'd venture to say it's that "beauty and polish" (in this case I'm referring to everything other than jumps) that carries her so far.

Whatever, I guess. How many times do I have to walk (browse) around and hear people wowing over her flexibility, etc.? About as often as I hear "She should skate clean this time."

Dee4707 · Aug 10, 2006

Red Dog said:
How many times do I have to walk (browse) around and hear people wowing over her flexibility, etc.? About as often as I hear "She should skate clean this time."

Just like every skater should.

Dee

R.D. · Aug 10, 2006

Yes. And some can accomplish that goal while others are still working on it.

Not easy to do. The average top skater usually comes through at least once or twice, though.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 10, 2006

temperboy - I think you believe there is only one medal - the gold one. Sasha has 2 World silvers; 1 bronze and 1 Oly silver. I think that is impressive. The judges in those events just didn't see her as a first place skater. Did she deserve first place? IMO, NO! Not in any of them. I think she could have won the gold in Dortmund and the Olys but........ Shizuka did. As for Moscow, it would have been more difficult in Irina's home town.

Is she pretty? Decidedly.
Is she a good skater? Decidedly.
Is she appreciated by the members in Golden Skate? Decidedly.

Most posts that seem derogatory to you are really posts that are about corrective critcism. I think most members want her to be golden at some point.

Joe

Spun Silver · Aug 10, 2006

I'm not disagreeing with other posters (except Red Dog who always likes to bite Sasha) but I guess the other thing that confuses a not-so-experienced viewer (like me) is that judges also seem to score other skaters high for PCS who don't begin to approach Sasha's "beauty and polish." Their being overmarked almost makes Sasha seem undermarked.

Eg Kimmie at Worlds. She had to win, I totally get that, but did she have to have sky-high PCS? it just made no sense. But that was not one of Sasha's better performances.

Interesting Wylie comparison, 76olympics. Hope you're right!

R.D. · Aug 10, 2006

Eg Kimmie at Worlds. She had to win, I totally get that, but did she have to have sky-high PCS? it just made no sense.

She totally deserved her World Gold. As for PCS, I don't know about you but other than the jumps I found the performance pretty bland. Kind of just "bleh", you know. It was "awesome", like she would say, but to me not memorable. Not to take away from her accomplishment, though.

But that was not one of Sasha's better performances.

Duh! Probably the worst I've seen her do in a long time. Probably ever. But that said, by general standards I wouldn't consider it a true meltdown... She still kept the program together other than the botched jumps, and that's what kept her on the podium IMO

P.S.

except Red Dog who always likes to bite Sasha

hey, what would bite be without a little bark to go along? :biggrin:

Mathman · Aug 10, 2006

That's an interesting point, Spun Silver. IMHO the Program Component Scores are still a work in progress. For one thing, it's not just "pretty" that is being judged. There are also things like depth and control of edges, power in stroking, command of the ice and a whole lot more.

These are areas that Irina Slutskaya excels in, for instance. People say, how can Irina get such high PCSs -- she's not nearly as pretty a skater as, say, Yukina Ota. True, but she has superior skating skills (in addition to her tech prowess).

As for Kimmie at Worlds, well, yes, her PCSs were in the eye-popping range. But a lot of that is the WOW factor, which IMHO is just as important as "beauty and polish."

Despite the wow, the judges still gave Sasha higher PCSs than Kimmie, 61.35 to 60.23. In fact, in the free skate (which was the worst I have ever seen Sasha skate) the judges gave her first place in component scores. That is, they thought that she was number one in beauty and polish.

But even with that advantage she finished fourth in the LP behind Kimmie, Fumie and Elena S., after the tech scores were factored in. I can't disagree with the judges on that one.

MM

Wolfgang · Aug 10, 2006

I don't think Sasha is underappreciated, she just has trouble landing jumps, which hurts her scores.
No one does pirouettes/spirals like she does, that and those Ukrainian dances she often does are also what she seems to enjoy the most on the ice.

SeaniBu · Aug 10, 2006

I feel that if it wasn't for her "Beauty and Polish" she would not be where she is. Her elegant lines, form and Flexibility under full control are the marvel of Sasha. I think those things are fully appreciated by anyone including the judges. And like everyone has said numbers of times before me "to bad about the jump consistency. My thought (which is a reach) is she is not confident that she can live up to her own expectations, some one said "conquer her demons" a while ago, I think that is a perfect explanation.

Personally I call her "Silky Sasha." Even her fall at COI was graceful as far as falls go :laugh:

Her LP in 2005 in Russia I believe??? Maybe it was Marshals?? Acutely I think it was Nationals. Anyhoo, Pink outfit, when she leaned over to touch the ice on a landing and didn't, that impressed the H*** out of me. Also I remember her in a spiral and couldn't quite get he leg up but just grinned and bared the frustration, and finally got the leg up. She is awesome. :love:

Just to bad about the "jump thing.":yes:

dizzydi7 · Aug 10, 2006

Beauty and polish not appreciated?

I think Sasha's grace and polish is appreciated by the judges. Her unfortunate falls have kept her from gold so many times.

The big question for me is "Do judges inflate the PCS scores of others"? I believe this is the case. An example would be the PCS scores of Kimmie at the World Championship. I believe her PCS scores were very inflated. Although she skated a nearly perfect long program, her presentation was no where near that of Sasha nor Fumie, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not saying that Kimmie shouldn't have won gold at the World Championship, however.

Sasha's beautiful, graceful and polished skating is never lost on me. I believe her to be the most beautiful skater I've seen in my lifetime.

This is my opinion.

Dizzy

hockeyfan228 · Aug 10, 2006

Tonichelle said:
she had a less than impressive free skate at the olys and she came out with a silver when she herself didn't expect any medal at all...

She didn't expect a medal at all given that she skated early in the group and hardly expected a score of 116.63 to stand and three out of four of the women who followed her -- Meissner, Slutskaya, Suguri, and Arakawa -- to place behind her in the free skate. (Gedevanishvili had already had a meltdown in the LP right before her.)

Mathman · Aug 10, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
She didn't expect a medal at all given that she skated early in the group and hardly expected a score of 116.63 to stand and three out of four of the women who followed her -- Meissner, Slutskaya, Suguri, and Arakawa -- to place behind her in the free skate.

I applaud that point. :clap:

...Although... if Sasha had stopped to think about it in her disappointment, she might have held out reasonable hope for the bronze.

Meissner's highest ever free skate up to that point was 110.80 at 2005 NHK, and Shizuka's (leaving out the 2003 "practice season") was 114.88 at 2004 NHK. Fumie's highest was 117.22 at 2005 Four Continents, but Sasha was already 5 points ahead of Fumie after the short.

So, conceding the gold to Slutskaya, it would have taken an all-time personal best by any of the other three to beat Sasha's not-all-that-bad 116.63.

Cohen's beauty and polish not appreciated?

temperboy27

Match Penalty

blackrose050

temperboy27

Match Penalty

chuckm

Mathman

attyfan

Custom Title

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

76olympics

R.D.

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

Spun Silver

R.D.

Mathman

Wolfgang

SeaniBu

dizzydi7

hockeyfan228

Mathman

Similar threads

Connect with us