Mission accomplished - Aliona Savchenko and Robin Szolkowy | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Mission accomplished - Aliona Savchenko and Robin Szolkowy

Ptichka said:
The truth of the matter is, it is likely there was such a deal. Chinese federation might have been unsure about S&Z, and could want shoring up; it could well agree to support the Russian team in return for Russians voting for S&Z over T&M. However, even if there were such a deal, it was not necessary - on that night, S&Z skated to a very solid bronze.
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It was not necessary for Shen and Zhao. But, as it turned out, it was certainly necessary for Bereshnaya and Sikharudlidze. Without the vote of the Chinese judge for the Russians, the Canadian team would have won regardless of what the French judge did.
 
Mathman said:
It was not necessary for Shen and Zhao. But, as it turned out, it was certainly necessary for Bereshnaya and Sikharudlidze. Without the vote of the Chinese judge for the Russians, the Canadian team would have won regardless of what the French judge did.
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I think that was what started the rumor.

Joe
 
Ptichka said:
The truth of the matter is, it is likely there was such a deal. Chinese federation might have been unsure about S&Z, and could want shoring up; it could well agree to support the Russian team in return for Russians voting for S&Z over T&M. However, even if there were such a deal, it was not necessary - on that night, S&Z skated to a very solid bronze.
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That is ridiculous! S&Z were pretty much a lock for the bronze in SLC,they were GPF champions in 1999, world medalists for the 3 years prior, and were generally considered in a completely different league from T&M and I&Z at that point in time. They were also very consistent skaters, and had always performed well under pressure. Barring a total apocalyptic meltdown, they were going home with bronze and there was no real reason for anyone to doubt that.

Aside from that ,the Chinese judge on that night who voted for B&S ,also supported I&Z over T&M, which makes it unlikely (to me anyway) that he was in anyone's pocket. To me, that vote is a bigger shock, because the Chinese have generally been considered part of the Eastern block from the get-go (Bauil-Kerrigan 1994) .
 
Joesitz said:
S&Z did not have a lock on the bronze in SLC. They were an up and coming Pairs team that looked good for the future. Big throws and that's all.

If the Chinese Judge would give B&S a gold vote, the Russian judge would give S&Z a bronze vote. This was a security measure.

And it was only a rumour going around at the time.

Joe
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I definitely dont feel Shen/Zhou were an "up and coming" pair by the time of the 2002 Olympics. They had already medaled at 3 straight Worlds, 2 silver and 1 bronze, and won 2 GP finals. They had not been off the podium in any competition since 1998 in fact. They were heavy favorites for the bronze, and they were not up and coming at that point, even though they did improve a great deal after SLC.

Totmianina/Marinin were actually much more up and coming then Shen/Zhou at the time of the 2002 Olympics. They had been near the top a much shorter time and would actually be much more of a threat to Shen/Zhou in future years then they were in 2002.

As for Ina/Zimmerman they were considered major long shots for a
medal at best. Anything that potrayed them as more was mass U.S media hype. Shen/Zhou were the heavy favorites for the bronze like I said, and Totmianina/Marinin were the only other ones considered to have any shot of it really. Ina/Zimmerman medaling would have been a major shock.
 
Shen and Zhao had a really good perfomance in 2002. if they had done the throw triple instead of the quad it would have been perfect. ( i still insist that she landed that quad and had a freak fall afterwards.) True, it was not as heartfelt and strong as thier performance the following year at worlds, but thier artisty was still budding. They deffinetly deserved a medal.
 
escaflowne9282 said:
Aside from that ,the Chinese judge on that night who voted for B&S ,also supported I&Z over T&M, which makes it unlikely (to me anyway) that he was in anyone's pocket.
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Hmm, you're right, sorry I didn't look at that earlier. What's more, the Chinese judge also marked Zagorska & Siudek over Petrova & Tikhonov in the free (in the short, he marked I&Z behind all Russian teams.
 
Ptichka said:
Hmm, you're right, sorry I didn't look at that earlier. What's more, the Chinese judge also marked Zagorska & Siudek over Petrova & Tikhonov in the free (in the short, he marked I&Z behind all Russian teams.
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It was understandable in the short some judgse might have had I/Z behind all 3 Russian teams, since Totmianina/Marinin and Petrova/Tikhonov were both completely flawless in the short. Ina/Zimmerman, while they did manage to finish in between Totmianina/Marinin and Petrova/Tikhonov in the short, struggled to hold onto two elements. So while they were 5th, a particular judge putting them as low as 6th is not that far fetched.

As for the free skate how any judges had Zagorska/Siudek above Petrova/Tikhonov is a huge mystery to me. Petrova/Tikhonov were slow and somewhat dull, but still were flawless technically, had two side by side triples, and a fairly polished program. Zagorska/Siudek missed both major side by side jumps, and were sloppy as usual (they actually improved alot after 2002 going to Gauthier, and still could not get close to Petrova/Tikhonov even with their best efforts).
 
Much of what is said about the individual Pairs is personal taste. no problem.

But, imo, there seems to have been one wild and wooly night in SLC. The competition will remain the most discussed podium finish ever - in fact, the top 5 finishers as well.

Nothing concrete here, but lots of opinions.

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
Nothing concrete here, but lots of opinions.

Joe
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Such is life at goldenskate - mostly opinions of various posters and the reason why we all come back to hear, debate and express ot own opinions about all of these events.

Ant
 
I don not think there is a deal between Chinese and Russian judge.JIasheng Yang said B/S their programme is much more difficult than s/p who used their old programme,es in transitions.And most of my friends think gold should go to B/S
 
We know that some posters will think there is no deal between China and Russia and there will be some posters who think there was.

Check out Antmanb's reply.

Joe
 
escaflowne9282 said:
That is ridiculous! S&Z were pretty much a lock for the bronze in SLC,they were GPF champions in 1999, world medalists for the 3 years prior, and were generally considered in a completely different league from T&M and I&Z at that point in time. They were also very consistent skaters, and had always performed well under pressure. Barring a total apocalyptic meltdown, they were going home with bronze and there was no real reason for anyone to doubt that. .
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Fusar-Poli/Margolio were reigning world champions and 2001 Grand Prix Final Champions. Lobacheva/Averbukh were silver GPF medallists in 2001, but weren't on the 2001 Worlds Podium and didn't compete in the 2001-2 GP season.

Even before the disastrous fall in the FD, the reigning World Champions were mired in third for both CD's and the OD. Lobacheva/Averbukh lost the Olympic Gold Medal by one vote in the FD. Not exactly the "expected" results, but the closeness of the vote could have been due to the Le Gougne relevations and publicity that would have made the Russian judge voting for A/P suicidal.

1 ANISSINA Marina / PEIZERAT Gwendal FRA 2.0 1 1 1 1
2 LOBACHEVA Irina / AVERBUKH Ilia RUS 4.0 2 2 2 2
3 FUSAR POLI Barbara / MARGAGLIO Maurizio ITA 6.0 3 3 3 3
4 BOURNE Shae-Lynn / KRAATZ Victor CAN 8.0 4 4 4 4

Standard practice for dealing is balancing the money decision and sacrificing the No 2 (or No 3) team/skater, so that people will point and say, but the [x] judge placed [country A's No 1 team] over [country B's No 2 team].

That doesn't prove a deal or no deal, but that the Chinese judge placed I&Z over T&M does not rule out a deal.
 
I think the fact Shen/Zhou were placed 3rd by every judge is quite telling personally. I guess someone would need to explain how there could be any block voting or deal done between certain parties, which could lead to that. Certainly the American and Canadian judges, whose teams the countries felt were screwed, would not have bought into such a plot, yet even they placed Shen/Zhou 3rd.

As I said Shen/Zhou were not the complete package yet of 2003-2007, but they were still the heavy bronze favorites from my perspective. There was atleast as much chance of them finishing higher then bronze, as not winning the bronze, which was close to nothing either way. Totmianina/Marinin were really a newbie team at the time, very early in their development still, and just starting to emerge into contenders. Ina/Zimmerman were never considered a top 3 pair team, they were having their best season ever, but they just were not of that calibre quite. Petrova/Tikhonov had been going downhill steadily in the couple years after their surprise 2000 World title. So basically Shen/Zhou would be the heavy bronze favorites in 2002 since even if they were not that great yet, there just wasnt anyone else at the time strong enough to beat them.
 
slutskayafan21 said:
I think the fact Shen/Zhou were placed 3rd by every judge is quite telling personally. I guess someone would need to explain how there could be any block voting or deal done between certain parties, which could lead to that.
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Easy. There could have been four judges voting in a bloc for Shen and Zhao because of an evil, wicked and sinister pre-determined conspiracy. And five other judges who were not part of any deal but who voted for Shen and Zhao because they thought this team skated the best.
 
Let me put what MM said in terms of logic:
I would describe the situation as "If a or b then c" where a is "there is block voting", b is "S&Z deserved their medal", and c is "S&Z got a medal". In other words, to satisfy "c", you need either a, b, or both to be true. Just because "b" was true does not mean that "a" was not.
 
Nobody has answered though who was the serious threat to Shen/Zhou for the bronze medal? If they were not considered a lock for the bronze atleast who was their competition for it?

Totmianina-Marinin? Ina-Zimmerman? Petrova-Tikhonov? I havent seen anyone bring up who that potential threat was. Totmianina/Marinin were a newbie team still, and very underdeveloped. Ina/Zimmerman were never taken seriously as a potential medalist in that field, except maybe by the most homer happy media types. Petrova/Tikhonov had been regressing since their World title win in 2000, and hadnt beaten any of the top 3 even once since then.

The idea that the Chinese fed. would have cooked up a deal to ensure Shen/Zhou the bronze seems very far fetched, since there does not seem to be anyone who was any threat whatsoever to their winning atleast the bronze in the first place. Nobody has even brought up who that would be. Their chances of winning more then bronze, while very slim, were still probably more then their chances of anyone taking away the bronze from them, further making such a deal seem irrational and unrealistic.
 
slutskayafan21 said:
Nobody has answered though who was the serious threat to Shen/Zhou for the bronze medal? If they were not considered a lock for the bronze atleast who was their competition for it?.
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I think I was the only one who said that, so that it doesn't look like a block of posters got together and decided there was no lock on the bronze medal.

I wowed with everyone over their throws and lifts prior to SLC but did not see the lock for 3rd place. Imo, and more than likely only imo, I thought a more experienced team at presentation could possibly take the bronze.

It wasn't till DC Worlds where I stood up an cheered with the crowd that there was more to S&Z than throws and lifts. Now which American choreographer gave them Turandot?

Joe
 
slutskayafan21 said:
The idea that the Chinese fed. would have cooked up a deal to ensure Shen/Zhou the bronze seems very far fetched...making such a deal seem irrational and unrealistic.
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To a certain kind of mind, it is perfectly rational.

Scenario A. The Chinese federation figures that Shen and Zhou's bronze is probably secure. They do nothing.

Scenario B. The Chinese federation figures that Shen and Zhao's bronze is secure. They scurry around making deals anyway because, (1) that's how it's done in the ISU, (2) you can never have too much insurance, (3) maybe some future favors will be in the offing, (d) if they don't play, maybe the Russians or the Americans will cut a deal with someone else and freeze the Chinese out, and (e) it's a lot more fun to be an active player than to sit twiddling your thumbs on the sideline.
 
Joesitz said:
I think I was the only one who said that, so that it doesn't look like a block of posters got together and decided there was no lock on the bronze medal.

I wowed with everyone over their throws and lifts prior to SLC but did not see the lock for 3rd place. Imo, and more than likely only imo, I thought a more experienced team at presentation could possibly take the bronze.

It wasn't till DC Worlds where I stood up an cheered with the crowd that there was more to S&Z than throws and lifts. Now which American choreographer gave them Turandot?

Joe
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I dont want to look like I am trying to force anyone into my own opinion or anything, I am not. I am just curious if you feel they were not a lock for the bronze, you must have had someone else in mind. I just am not getting who that is though.

Who might be an example of this "more experienced team at presentation"? Was it Petrova/Tikhonov, was it Totmianina/Marinin, Zagorska/Siudek,
Ina/Zimmerman? Was there someone(s) specificaly you had in mind, or did you perhaps just overestimate the field, and assume were they were in their skating at that point in time that there should be other team(s) to also be a threat for the bronze, but in fact did not exist. ;)

The way I see it personally, is I agree Shen/Zhou were pretty much only huge jumps, twists, throws, back then. However in the 2002 field that was enough to dominate all the teams behind them and make them a lock for the bronze; since the teams after that - an undeveloped still not mature Totmianina/Marinin, a fading bland Petrova/Tikhonov, the technicaly inferior Ina/Zimmerman, and the sloppy Zagorska/Siudek or Abitol/Bernadis, just werent good enough at the time to present any threat to them at all for their medal; even if they were only huge throws, twists, jumps, and hardly anything else back then.

However if you disagree with my accessment on any team(s) that I just listed, and saw any of those team(s) as any threat to Shen/
Zhou's medal I wont argue with that. I am just curious who that is in that years field.
 
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