Underrotation/pre-rotation in combos

In a jump combination, it seems like it would be a great advantage to underrotate the first jump and pre-rotate the second. Joesitz has made the point that a loop as the second jump in a combination is usually pre-rotated a lot more than a solo loop.

If you do, say, a triple Lutz-triple toe, or triple flip/triple loop, is there a different landing technique on the first jump than when it is done solo? It seems like that perfect outflowing edge that you look for in a single jump is maybe not the best entry to the second jump.

Admittedly, I don't seriously practice figure skating, let alone do 3-3's , but I don't think that underrotating the first jump would make completing the second one any easier. On the contrary, I think it would make the second jump much more difficult, because when a skater underrotates, he/she looses a lot of speed an flow out of the jump.

I like to create skating montages in my free time, which means that I had spent a lot of time looking at skater's jumps frame-by-frame. It seems to me that jumping 3-3's is the easiest for those skaters who are able to maintain perfect flow and speed in their jumps.

I've also noticed that skaters who just attempt to learn 3-3's usually choose as the first jump the triple which they can do the best and maintain the most flow out of. Usually it's a triple toe, but for example for Nana Takeda a loop jump is the easiest, so she atempted 3L-3T (and landed it in a show, although 3T was underrotated).

There are some skaters who have managed to eek out a prerotated triple on the end of an underrotated one, but their combinations didn't look pretty or easy, (and would get downgraded under current rules). In general I've rarely seen a skater underrotating the first jump, usually it's the second one that's more likely to be short on rotations.

If you do, say, a triple Lutz-triple toe, or triple flip/triple loop, is there a different landing technique on the first jump than when it is done solo?

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I think it depends on the skater. I think that all the skaters would like a perfect edge and flow out of the first jump, but not all are able to do so yet. Some have managed to tack a triple, usually toe, on a mildly UR triple (like Kimmie), but I think that if they were able to sustain more speed out of the first jump and maintain more edge control, executing the second triple would be even easier for them.
If you'll look at this 3Lz-3T (0:46):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypCBsAZxIFo
it has the same flowy edge out of the first jump as the solo 3A, and both jumps are executed in the same way as if they were solo triples, fully rotated while still in the air. If one split the combo into two different videos, it would be difficult to tell whether they are a part of the combo or solo triples.
In the LP commentary at the same competition Dick Button mentioned that for a perfect combo "the first jump must be in perfect condition". I agree with that, and I think that the more control the skater has over the landing edge, the easier the second jump becomes.

Joesitz has made the point that a loop as the second jump in a combination is usually pre-rotated a lot more than a solo loop.

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In general, I'd hesitate to use a term "pre-rotated" in relation to the loop jumps, because it suggests to me that a perfect loop should consist of precisely 3 rotations and the fact that the skaters "pre-rotate" it makes it somewhat easier. In fact loop seems to be a nemesis jump for many skaters and very few attempt 3-3L or even 3-2L combinations. It might not have precisely 3 revolutions on the air, but this is how the jump mechanics work, and it's not any less"pre-rotated" that 3A is "over-rotated".

As for whether or not a loop as the second jump in a combination is usually pre-rotated a lot more than a solo loop, I think this is not always the case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h95n83KoBTY
This is a quick montage comparing Nobunari's loop as a part of 3Lz-3L combo with solo 3L out of running 3s and out of a normal entrance. All 3Ls are executed in the same way.

It would be interesting to compare combo loops and toes with solo loops and toes of other skaters, but I run out of time today.

In general, loops are harder as the second jump in a combo because the free leg can't check back because the loop is partially created from the free leg in front and that free hip generating some of the pop. I HAVE seen a loop that takes off with the free leg checked back, but I have always wondered how she did it (and it was a single, not a multi-rev jump).

The loop as the first or second jump will have the same amount of pre-rotation, the timing is just a little different (speaking for myself here, your results may be different) if it's the second jump in the combo because I have to orient my upper body to make sure I get good lift (again, I do not do 2Lo or 3Lo as the second jump in a combo, just a plain ol' 1Lo), so the pre-rotation is easier to spot.

Combonations, especially 3/3 combos are easier done when the skater is able to easily complete the first jumps. Kimmie, got into the habit of under-rotating her and pre-rotating her toe sometimes she would even under rotate while exiting the toe, so the entire combination was a party for deductions. Of course I seems common sense that a skater should only attempt such combinations when they have fully mastered both jumps in them, and only attempt them in competition when they can be performed cleanly.

It is still anybody's guess wether kimmie or anyone else who was always called out for cheated jumps did perform them cleanly in practice.

Mathman said:

In a jump combination, it seems like it would be a great advantage to underrotate the first jump and pre-rotate the second. Joesitz has made the point that a loop as the second jump in a combination is usually pre-rotated a lot more than a solo loop.

If you do, say, a triple Lutz-triple toe, or triple flip/triple loop, is there a different landing technique on the first jump than when it is done solo? It seems like that perfect outflowing edge that you look for in a single jump is maybe not the best entry to the second jump.

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You definately need a good landing on the first jump. If the jump is under-rotated, not only will there not be a enough speed to get a second jump but it will also be difficult to keep your body inline and checked for the next jump.

I've never done triples but putting a double in combination feels different than as a solo jump. This probably isn't a good explanation but I'll try to describe it! When landing solo jump, your left leg goes back and your hips and shoulders open out so your quite sqaure on the direction your travelling. If a loop is the second jump, when you land the first jump you need to keep your left leg in front and make sure your hips and shoulders are in line facing slightly in to the circle. A toeloop as a second jump is a combination of both with the left leg going back like a solo jump but the shoulders staying closed like a loop. Does that make any sense? It's hard to write this, it would be easier if I could show you!

I don't see how it would be an advantage to under-rotate or pre-rotate any jump, it would just be down graded.

All jumps singular and in combo should have good landings.

However, comfort is the key to doing combos. If the first jump is landed less than good and the second one is perfect. What will the caller see? How will the audience react? How will the judges react? How will the TV viewers react?

Now, was the skater happy about the jumps aside from the score?

C_T_T_ said:

I've never done triples but putting a double in combination feels different than as a solo jump... When landing solo jump, your left leg goes back and your hips and shoulders open out so your quite square on the direction your travelling. If a loop is the second jump, when you land the first jump you need to keep your left leg in front and make sure your hips and shoulders are in line facing slightly in to the circle.

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This is what I was trying to come to a better understanding of. Thanks for the post (also Okami and MSkater.) So would you say it's more that the upper body has to keep continuously turning in a combination, rather than the blade turning a lot on the ice between jumps?

Well I wouldn't say 'keep continuously turning' because there is definately a pause between the jumps to create a tension and check the body to start the next rotation but I would say the upper body and position of the legs are a big part of it and will influence what the blade does. The take off edge has to be relatively straight, well not go into the circle or it can be hard to control the jump and you can end up completely of axis in the air so the blade can't turn too much on the ice.

Actually, if the upper body opens and is "continuously turning" the skater is more likely to miss the second jump or jump it badly or do a double three turn between the jumps. It's more that the upper body check has to be very strong and then reversed for the second jump so instead of opening out and letting the landing flow, the check out happens and then the upper body recoils/retracts to a take off position (which creates the difference in timing for the second jump versus the jump solo for me in that when it's the second jump it takes longer than solo). For the loop as a second jump, I was taught toe-heel-toe for my lower body to generate enough lifting power and out-set-release for my upper body to create rotation all the while making sure I am standing up versus leaning into the circle. I hope this makes some sense...

mskater93 said:

Actually, if the upper body opens and is "continuously turning" the skater is more likely to miss the second jump or jump it badly or do a double three turn between the jumps. It's more that the upper body check has to be very strong and then reversed for the second jump so instead of opening out and letting the landing flow, the check out happens and then the upper body recoils/retracts to a take off position ..... I hope this makes some sense...

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Yes that makes sense, that's kinda what I was trying to say!
I can't read this thread without stepping it all through!

Mathman said:

So would you say it's more that the upper body has to keep continuously turning in a combination, rather than the blade turning a lot on the ice between jumps?

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Some examples of excellent combinations with 3T:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XX1kxQLMsw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRk1HHmrqo

The jump combo is the first element in both these clips.

Note how the rotation stops and the skater lets the landing edge of the first jump run for several feet before taking off for the second jump. Note also that the rotation of the upper body is stopped (checked) with the free arm (opposite side from the landing leg -- left arm for Kim, right for Kostner) and shoulder forward on that first landing. Much of what generates the rotation for the second jump is releasing the free shoulder back and snapping the skating-side shoulder forward on the takeoff of the second jump.

3Lo combos:

Again, first element in the programs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZfttfa9yRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka-42Qz9p-U

You can't see the check in the upper body so well from this angle, but you can see that they let the landing edge of the first jump run before taking off for the second, which makes these much less prerotated than many 3Lo combos and earned high GOEs as a result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2HpyXmK8T0
3Lo+3Lo at 3:45 -- not quite as good, but still you can see that the rotation does stop and start again between jumps; it would never work if she just kept rotating on the ice in between.

Joesitz said:

All jumps singular and in combo should have good landings.

However, comfort is the key to doing combos. If the first jump is landed less than good and the second one is perfect. What will the caller see? How will the audience react? How will the judges react? How will the TV viewers react?

Now, was the skater happy about the jumps aside from the score?

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Who would see? The judges, the skater's coach and the choreographer.

How will the judges react? The skater will lose marks.

Fans in the audience with a trained eye (former figure skaters for example) will know the jump was under rotated.

No the skater will not be happy because the jump was somewhat "cheated" and not well executed.

Combination jumps are meant to be challenging and at the same time give the skater more variety to his/her program.

All jumps, single or in combination should be well executed.

Ladskater said:

All jumps, single or in combination should be well executed.

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Could not be put better!!!!

skatergirl45 said:

Could not be put better!!!!

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Obviously, but the topic is about not so perfect jumps.

I thought Mathman was asking whether it would be easier for a skater to complete a triple-triple combination by underrotating the first jump and prerotating the second . . . and later he modified that question to whether it would help to rotate the upper body rather than the blade continuously between the jumps.

The answer that okami, mskater93, C_T_T_, and I gave is No -- it's easier to perform the second jump if the landing of the first jump is well checked with a good running edge.

BTW, some advice I've heard about combinations in general (from coaches and from at least one commentator on TV although I can't remember specifically where) is to try to aim for distance on the first jump, especially on the landing, and height on the second.

Hm, the way I have been trained for combos is different - the goal is that each jump in the combination should be the same (height and distance). My coach looks at the blade lengths between take offs and landings of all jumps in a combo and corrects whichever jump a little bit so that they end up the same. For example, I have an Axel-toe loop-loop combination and we've worked on shortening the Axel a little bit so the distance is smaller but the flow out is faster and now the toe loop matches up to the Axel (the loop is still a squeaker when I am able to do it).

gkelly said:

BTW, some advice I've heard about combinations in general (from coaches and from at least one commentator on TV although I can't remember specifically where) is to try to aim for distance on the first jump, especially on the landing, and height on the second.

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mskater93 said:

Hm, the way I have been trained for combos is different - the goal is that each jump in the combination should be the same (height and distance).

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I think it's a combination of the two. Ideally the two jumps should be equal in height and distance but that not nessecaraly the way to think about it. Most people will loose speed during the first jump so you have to put more effort on jumping higher in the second one. Equally if you throw all your energy to jumping the first one as high as possible, you have nothing left for the second jump so for some people it might help to think about 'long and low' on the fisrt jump to maintain flow and hight on the second jump but what you see is two equal sized jumps. Every skater will have different things they focus on, so I see where your both coming from.