"Speed" vs. "Music" in Free Skate

Mathman said:

P.S. I just thought of an interesting experiment.

Find a competitive figure skating program on You Tube that you have never seen before and are unfamiliar with. Watch it with the sound off. Can you guess what kind of music it was? Fast or slow? A waltz or a tango? Ave Maria or the William Tell Overature?

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That's a cool idea. I just tried it with this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAeqqFMXUDc

Now I find it difficult to call this muzak exactly "fast" or "slow," but it's fair to say that, from the way Slutskaya flew through that program that I assumed the music was, in most parts, much faster. If I had to guess: a tarantella with a short romantic section somewhere in the middle!

Do I get paid for participating in this research project?

Mathman said:

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As Joe points out, the description of the program components does speak to this question, but it is hard to tell how any individual judge weighs the various factors.

Under Skating Skills the IJS guidelines list "use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed."

This, however, is listed as a "skating skill," not as something that is related to the music.

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Does that mean the competitor must add a 'fast' sequence without regard to music, but just for the sake of showing speed. That would be more than likely an ugly program.

On the interpretation side, under Performance/Execution it aays "varied use of tempo (and) rhythm."

Under Choreography, "movement (should be) structure to match the phrasing of the music.

And under Interpretation, the instructions to judges speak of the "ability to translate music through sureness of rhythm (and) tempo," and of "awareness of all rhythm/tempo changes in a variety of ways."

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Looks like Interpretation and Choreography are battling it out :laugh for the Rights to Musicality with or without Speed which is entrenched in Skating Skills and not related to music at all.

Oh well, Ave Maria must be skated faster than the prayer. Amen.

I wonder what percentage of a competitive long program has any connection to the music at all. I don't think a quad done to Ave Maria is any different from a quad done to heavy metal.

Again, it is different in dance. Ballet dancers do not leap spectacularly into the air just to prove they can do it -- such leaps are part of the choreography.

Maybe it is the same with skating really fast. That's a skill that the skater is expected to demonstrate, music or no music.

But as Berezhnaya and Sikharudlize's Lady Caliph program shows, skating fast doesn't preclude movements appropriate to the music -- especially for skaters who can accelerate with apparent effortlessness.

Joesitz said:

Oh well, Ave Maria must be skated faster than the prayer. Amen.

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Schubert's use of recurring arpeggiated triplet figures in the inner voices gives Ave Maria a very nice motion for skating. The rise and fall of the melody and the expressive use of dynamics all offer a choreographer many choices. Likewise a skater can use varying degrees of speed interpreting this music. Good musical interpretation must go beyong the tempo of the music. A skater's speed and choreo does not have to be directly related to the metronomic pulse of music. There is more to music than just it's tempo. Good choreo needs to follow the phrasing of the music just as closely as it's tempo. Dynamics can also lead choreography as we often see jumps - not when the music gets faster - to the contrary we see jumps when the music rises in volume and the jump occurs following the phrase and crescendo of the music for peak effect and excitement.
Skaters typically are skating to the motion of the music and following the melodic phrasing. The tempo serves only as the starting point.

janetfan said:

metronomic pulse of music. There is more to music than just it's tempo. Good choreo needs to follow the phrasing of the music just as closely as it's tempo. Dynamics can also lead choreography as we often see jumps - not when the music gets faster - to the contrary we see jumps when the music rises in volume and the jump occurs following the phrase and crescendo of the music for peak effect and excitement.
Skaters typically are skating to the motion of the music and following the melodic phrasing. The tempo serves only as the starting point.

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Skaters as well as Conductors can lead the choreo to an upbeat tempo throughout the music if there is a recording as such. Skaters do not choose to skate to original skating music except in rare cases.

Good jumping requires good speed. If a skater has problems with jumps it could be his speed. Speed can be covered in the GoEs as well as in Skating Skills.

To say skaters utilize melodic phrasing is an understatement. IMO, 90% of the skaters do not skate to anything that it is not strong on melody and to phrase it would not be difficult.

What do you think of Bartok's The Miraculous Manderin for a skating routine? I saw it once and sat up tall, but the skater was won over by the usual Carmen. (Both skater had the same tricks and both skated well.)

Mathman said:

I wonder what percentage of a competitive long program has any connection to the music at all. I don't think a quad done to Ave Maria is any different from a quad done to heavy metal

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Agree! but I also think Ave Maria can be skated without refrence to anything religious. it's a lovely piece of music with a strong melody and its variances on a theme. Unless the conductor takes a different approach to the music, I do not see a Quad in it anymore than I would for that intermezzo in Thais. In fact I do not see these music pieces as good sports competitiveness, but definitely as specialty pieces in an Ice Show.

Again, it is different in dance. Ballet dancers do not leap spectacularly into the air just to prove they can do it -- such leaps are part of the choreography.

Maybe it is the same with skating really fast. That's a skill that the skater is expected to demonstrate, music or no music.

But as Berezhnaya and Sikharudlize's Lady Caliph program shows, skating fast doesn't preclude movements appropriate to the music -- especially for skaters who can accelerate with apparent effortlessness.

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Please, skating is not ballet!!! Ballet dancers do not compete except for auditioning to get into a company Except for their work as part of a Coda, they do not 'sell' their leaps. Leaps are just steps of the dance whereas in FS, jumps are tricks that are judged and wow the audience. Not necessary in ballet when viewing the whole dance. The dancers get ovations, if deserved and good critical reviews.

Skating fast for points with or without music is the option of figure skaters. You know my feeling about getting rid of music in FS except for Exhibitions. Maybe even have a separate comp for Exhibitions.

B&S Pairs as well as Yuko Sato Solo were masters at ice coverage with hidden speed. Unlike their competitors who were more open to showing some speed.
Where would one score B&S or Yuko in the CoP: GoEs or skating ability or Interpretation? and how? so the public would know whether it was judged or just assumed?

Joesitz said:

Good jumping requires good speed. If a skater has problems with jumps it could be his speed. Speed can be covered in the GoEs as well as in Skating Skills.

To say skaters utilize melodic phrasing is an understatement. IMO, 90% of the skaters do not skate to anything that it is not strong on melody and to phrase it would not be difficult.

Agree! but I also think Ave Maria can be skated without refrence to anything religious. it's a lovely piece of music with a strong melody and its variances on a theme. Unless the conductor takes a different approach to the music, I do not see a Quad in it anymore than I would for that intermezzo in Thais.

Please, skating is not ballet!!! ?

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Have you ever seen Yuna do her combo 2A + 3Toe jump. She is not moving very fast after the 2A but her jump into the 3Toe is great and very high. In fact most combo jumps that follow a triple whatever are depending on the skaters jumping ability and technique as they don't have anywhere near the speed they entered into the first jump of the combo with. Great jumpers can do jumps from various speeds, not just out of a fast flow.

You say it is not difficult to skate to the melodic phrasing of the music. If that is a true statement then as you also state 90% can do this easily. Does it follow then as you suggest that 90% of all skaters have very good musicality? Some might see this a little differently.

I could easily see a quad or triple axle to "Ave Maria." Do you think the tempo of Ave Maria is too slow? Caroline is doing many triples to Ave Maria and the skating world does have some who might be considered smoother jumpers than Caroline.

I am not sure what your religious reference means when skating to Ave Maria? Is there some church edict against doing a quad to Ave Maria that I am not aware of OK, I am strictly kidding with that last remark.

Interesting topic - and you do raise some interesting points. I don't think anyone answered you original question but mathman's answer - with the rules - a few posts back was close enough for me.

About ballet - it seems like skating owes much to ballet as does the Dance world in general. Think of the great music that would NOT have been composed without commissions from the Ballet world. I agree that "skating is not ballet" but skating would not be as rich and beautiful if all balletic elements were to be removed.