Should the ISU expand the field for the Grand Prix final? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Should the ISU expand the field for the Grand Prix final?

Mathman said:
True. Maybe this shows that the plan of the ISU worked. :)
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I know less about 4cc than almost anything I can think of that has to do with skating. I am not even sure which four continents they are referring too ;)

N. America, Europe, Asia.....and a wild guess - Australia ???

Give me a year and I will bring a team of skating penguins from Antartica. We will become the 4th continent..
 
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^ The Americas (North and South America count as one continent, like in the Olympic rings), Asia, Africa and Oceana.

Oceana is mostly Australia, but New Zealand sent a men's skater this year, Mathieu Wilson.

I think the only African nation in the ISU is South Africa. They sent 2 ladies and 1 man to the 2009 event.

There were several skters from Mexico and South America.

Europe has their own "continental" competition (appropriately called Europeans. :laugh:)

The winners of the 1948 European championship were Dick Button (USA) and Barbara Ann Scott (Canada). (After World War II European figure skating programs were in shambles, so they allowed North Americans to come just so they would have some skaters to put on a show with. After 1948, it went back to being Europeans only.)
 
janetfan said:
This year I could care less, even at the Olympics about seeing anything under the top 12 skaters. Why? Because many of them are bad. USA could have atleast 6-8 Ladies this year and the quality of skating would be greatly improved. Why might Caroline, Mirai , Ashley, Kimmie, Alissa, etc, etc, etc, not be skating at the Olympics? It makes no sense to me to have so many skaters that could not make a US Jr team skating while so many better skaters are home. That is partially why TV ratings in USA are so low. Why do we want to watch, in some cases skaters below our average junior skater's level? It is silly and it is wrong. It goes against the Olympic ideal and against the basic rules of competition.
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The olympic ideal is:
"The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

You could laugh at this, of course, but for many of the athletes this is true. Almost every nation in the world is represented nowadays. That's why the number of athletes are restricted in all the sports in OG, not only in figure skating. Like it or not.

btw I don't find the american ladies that superior. 2008 worlds: 7, 10 and 16. 2009: 5 and 11. For me it would be more interesting to see like 5-6 japanese ladies in OG :rock:
 
I'm happy to see others also think that increasing the number of GPFinalists to at least 8 would improve the competitions in many ways. Now can we convince the ISU of that?

As to 4CC v. Euros. Well, travel plays a big roll in the distinction. A skater from Paris travelling to Warsaw will take up a substantial amount of time, but one from Capetown to Vancouver is a heluva long trip, and not so easy even if it is a direct flight.

If Argentina begins to enhance its figure skating on ice, that will also be a huge trip, and Capetown and Argentina may want to hold the Worlds someday. It's not a European sport any more.
 
The short answer is "nothing."
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:laugh::laugh::laugh:

How the idea of Four continents was born?It is like mini worlds , all except european skaters. Is there an event like Euros for each of the other continents by the way?



Give me a year and I will bring a team of skating penguins from Antartica.
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why dont you pick kangaroo from australia. They would be good jumbers.:p

The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part...You could laugh at this, of course, but for many of the athletes this is true. Almost every nation in the world is represented nowadays.
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thats why I like Olympics. Not only in figure skating. No matter how commercial it has ended up, in his pure concept i like the fact that athletes from countries i ve never heard of come and compete just to compete. .If you have attended live you see their joy. Otherwise I would watch a second round of Worlds.
 
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seniorita said:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

why dont you pick kangaroo from australia. They would be good jumbers.:p

thats why I like Olympics. Not only in figure skating. No matter how commercial it has ended up, in his pure concept i like the fact that athletes from countries i ve never heard of come and compete just to compete. .If you have attended live you see their joy. Otherwise I would watch a second round of Worlds.
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I like the Olympic Festival for the same reasons you mentioned. But it does bug me to see so many ot the wolrd's best skaters - American, Japanese, or from any nation - being left out. Why not see the joy of competing from the 50 best skaters and not from the 25 best skaters with 25 others who are only there because their country is a member of IOC.
It is possible to have an Olympic qualifying tournament for skaters/Federations that are smaller or newer to skating. They do this for the World Cup in football because no one wants to pay money to go see Brazil beat Samoa 35 - 0 in a "World Cup" game.
Thanks for some of the replies and this is just something that doesn't feel right to me. I think of Caroline Zhang watching Worlds last Spring in her home town knowing that there were 30 skaters competing who she could beat on a bad day.
I am sure there were Japanese skaters and others who should have also been there. Why is ISU rewarding Federations with guaranteed spots in it's most prestigious events and leaving out some of the best skaters?
Kangaroos are notorious flutzers so I will stick with penguins.
 
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seniorita said:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
How the idea of Four continents was born?It is like mini worlds , all except european skaters. Is there an event like Euros for each of the other continents by the way?
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There used to be the North American Championships, which were held every other year between 1923 and 1971. The Canadian federation decide to end its participation before the 1973 competition and launched the Skate Canada event later that year. That was it for North American Championships.

Europe obviously has plenty of member federations and Euros has a long history and a lot of prestige. As others have noted, there aren't many federations from Africa or even the Americas. Obviously it makes more sense to have one event for all non-European skaters, namely 4CC. I think they're still working on making it attractive to skaters (ISU ranking points, prizes, occasionally questionnable scoring leading to ridiculous PBs etc. :biggrin:).
 
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janetfan said:

Why not see the joy of competing from the 50 best skaters and not from the 25 best skaters with 25 who are only there because their country is a member of IOC.
It is possible to have an Olympic qualifying tournament for skaters/Federations that are smaller or newer to skating. They do this for the World Cup in football because no one wants to pay money to go see Brazil beat Samoa 35 - 0 in a "World Cup" game.
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I don't understand exactly how you mean? That the 25 with best personal scores could participate and then 25 more from a qualifying round?

Then the rules must be changed for other sports too. For example I am sure that a bunch of Norwegian cross country skiiers could place top ten in certain disciplins.

OK, I know this is not the topic of this thread. Should have been in some olympic thread.
 
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snowflake said:
I don't understand exactly how you mean? That the 25 with best personal scores could participate and then 25 more from a qualifying round?

Then the rules must be changed for other sports too. For example I am sure that a bunch of Norwegian cross country skiiers could place top ten in certain disciplins.
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I was vague about how to fix this problem - but you did understand my point. Why not have more Norwegian cross country skiers if they have some that are clearly better - and deserving by their skill level to compete in the Olympics.
They did change rules about the ski jumpers because some were so bad they were making a mockery of the event. Wonder what it was like watching the first group of six Lady skaters at Worlds this year? Were they as good as some of the better Japanese Junior skaters?
 
maybe some of this thread which appears to be a learning thread be brought to the Olympics or the 4CC threads.

back to the topic

Would fans like to see the Finalists in the GPs raised to 8? and do you think the ISU would consider it?

Can anyone speak of the additional financial implications? additional cost of ISU and cost of host countries, for example.
 
Joesitz said:
.

Would fans like to see the Finalists in the GPs raised to 8? and do you think the ISU would consider it?

Can anyone speak of the additional financial implications? additional cost of ISU and cost of host countries, for example.
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Having more skaters in the GP finals could offer a more competitive final. But for a GPF to be more meaningful I would think the entire GP selection process would also need to be overhauled. Right now, much of making it to the GPF depends on the "luck of the draw." How competitive is that?
At this time it appears that ISU has thrown a truckload of money into the new WTT event. With over a million dollars awarded in prize money it feels like this is something they are hoping will catch on. Some say ISU has no money - but they found money for WTT. Apparently ISU does not feel a need to change GP format at this time - and don't forget ISU is still spending alot to get 4CC better established in the minds of the top skaters.
 
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^^^
Interesting that you posed the question of the moneys used by the ISU for the WTT, and assuming that it would need more money for the GPs if the finalists were to be raised to 8.

I believe but not certain that Japan fitted the bill for WTT with ISU blessing.

I also believe that you may be opining about the additinal costs for the GPs.
you may be correct but I would like to see facts. We all can give opinions.
 
Joesitz said:
^^^
Interesting that you posed the question of the moneys used by the ISU for the WTT, and assuming that it would need more money for the GPs if the finalists were to be raised to 8.

I believe but not certain that Japan fitted the bill for WTT with ISU blessing.

I also believe that you may be opining about the additinal costs for the GPs.
you may be correct but I would like to see facts. We all can give opinions.
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I do not have access to the ISU bookeeping records or their current balance sheet, so I am only able to offer opinions until further notice.
Other posters have mentioned the money and cost factor several times.
My opinion is that it is silly to try and make the GPF more competitive because the selection process is based on different factors. It is based on federations having their best skaters at home to attract the best attendance at their event. GP selection is about filling seats and making money. It is not about competition.
So why would they suddenly decide the GPF is a mini worlds - when it is NOT.
 
janetfan said:
Why is ISU rewarding Federations with guaranteed spots in it's most prestigious events...
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Because the ISU is run by the member federations. They would never vote to cut themselves out of the Olympics.

Some say ISU has no money - but they found money for WTT.
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As Joe points out, the WTT money came from Japanese TV and Japanese corporate sponsors. Japan is probably the only country right now that can put up the bucks. That's why next year's event is also scheduled for Japan, and at the moment no more WTTs are in the works.

The ISU recently decided that they could not give the USFSA any money to put on Skate America. For the first time, Skate America is on its own, as far as attracting sponsorship and TV money.
 
Mathman said:
Because the ISU is run by the member federations. They would never vote to cut themselves out of the Olympics.


As Joe points out, the WTT money came from Japanese TV and Japanese corporate sponsors. Japan is probably the only country right now that can put up the bucks. That's why next year's event is also scheduled for Japan, and at the moment no more WTTs are in the works.

The ISU recently decided that they could not give the USFSA any money to put on Skate America. For the first time, Skate America is on its own, as far as attracting sponsorship and TV money.
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All good points mm.
Fifa is run in a similar manner, but not every member of Fifa gets to play in the World Cup. They run a competition to see who will qualify.

My point exactly - that when ISU wanted money for something they were able to find it. Why can't they find it for GPF? Or do they even want to change it?

Skate America picked Evan didn't they - maybe they should have also picked Jeremy and Alissa - but they didn't. The whole GP process is politicized, based on filling seats and even protecting certain skaters. To call it strange might be an understatement. :yes:
 
Joesitz said:
also believe that you may be opining about the additinal costs for the GPs.

you may be correct but I would like to see facts. We all can give opinions.
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As Janetfan mentions, the ISU does not open its books to public inspection. But here are some facts.

At the last go-round the ISU felt itself so pressed for money that it instituted these changes:

1. They cut down the number of skaters who qualify for the LP at Worlds, Europeans and Four Continents. For singles, only the top 20 in the SP (instead of 24) will be allowed to skate the LP. At Four Continents, only the top 12 pairs and the top 12 dance teams will skate the LP/FD. The host country will no longer be allowed to qualify an extra skater.

2. If a skater does not make the cut for the LP, he/she must leave the premises by breakfast the day after the SP. The ISU will not pay for hotel and meals after that. :frown2:

3. The number of judges was cut down from 12 to 9, even for the Olympics. I do not know how much money the ISU saves by eliminating the expenses of three extra judges, but whatever small amount it is, the ISU feels this cost-cutting measure to be necessary in these hard times.

I do not see any possibility that the ISU will increase the field for the GP final, or for any figure skating event, for the foreseeable future.

Here is Sonia Bianchetti's take on it.

http://www.soniabianchetti.com/writings_costsavings.html
 
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Thanks for an interesting and informative post. :yes:
I don't like that the number of judges has been cut and I am sure you can see the statistical possibilties can become too important in how skaters might be placed.

Earlier I questioned why at a given Worlds or Olympics 10 to 20 of the wolrd's best skaters will not be participating. I am aware that I didn't offer a solution and don't think I have the answer. I do think that ISU should do more to assure that skaters who have shown they are among the 20 best in the world should be at these competitions regardless of their nationality.
 
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janetfan said:
Earlier I questioned why at a given Worlds or Olympics 10 to 20 of the wolrd's best skaters will not be participating. I am aware that I didn't offer a solution and don't think I have the answer. I do think that ISU should do more to assure that skaters who have shown they are among the 20 best in the world should be at these competitions regardless of their nationality.
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How do you decide who the twenty best in the world are though? You would have to implement a system that gave points to the skaters and that would be very hard to keep up with throughout the year. For example, tennis rankings are constantly changing week to week.

There is also a risk that one of the best skaters in the World bombs for most of the year, doesn't get the required points to make it to Worlds and they miss out (which is the same problem that you brought up - top skaters missing out on Worlds). In many sports the best don't always get to compete. Relating this to another sport, Hockey Canada will pick their players for Team Canada in 2010 by the end of the year. Our country has so many talented players that many will not make Team Canada but they could easily make any other team from another country.
 
i love to skate said:
How do you decide who the twenty best in the world are though? You would have to implement a system that gave points to the skaters and that would be very hard to keep up with throughout the year. For example, tennis rankings are constantly changing week to week.

There is also a risk that one of the best skaters in the World bombs for most of the year, doesn't get the required points to make it to Worlds and they miss out (which is the same problem that you brought up - top skaters missing out on Worlds). In many sports the best don't always get to compete. Relating this to another sport, Hockey Canada will pick their players for Team Canada in 2010 by the end of the year. Our country has so many talented players that many will not make Team Canada but they could easily make any other team from another country.
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All very good points. The first thing I might address is about hockey. It is a team sport so it differs from sports where individuals are particpating. My point would be more like what if there was an Olympics and for some reason/rule Team Canad did not qualify - but there was a team from Bolivia (who was losing 20 - 0 in each game?) Would that feel strange?

Earlier I asked what are ISU rankings used for?
Don't they change after various events that go on during a season?
I don't disagree with your views and like I said I don't have the answer. But sometimes solutions or a better understanding come from asking questions. That is all I am doing.
 
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