What will You Be Looking for from Your Favorite Skaters?

janetfan · Jun 29, 2009

Mathman said:
: It is not so obvious to me what would happen under 6.0 judging, because everything is lumped togheter into just two overall marks. Sometimes it seemd like skaters couiod flutz away and nobody cared. Other times, they got dinged for it. Tara Lipinski took some serious hits for flutzing in the 1997-98 season, even though she was the reigning world champion.

Generally speaking under CoP the skaters do not get marlked down in GOE just because the judges thought the element wasn't very pretty. There has to be a specific error.

Thanks mm, I appreciate your answer and analysis. Actually, I thought this was a simple question - but under CoP nothing seems simple

I think a tricky part of my question is that so much depends on the "degree" factor (how bad of an edge take off, how bad was the telegraphing, or will it even be called, what type of a bad landing,- two foot, wrong foot, etc,).

As I imagined this in my mind Mao would come out of this scenario better under 6.0 as she would be doing every part of the jump very well except for her edge take off. Caro's jump would not be considered as good for only doing one part well - the edge take off. Again, here I am assuming that if her landing was sloppy then either her air position was not so good or she was either under or over rotating her jump. Caro seems to have many of these landings and I don't think she would have done as well under 6.0 as she has under CoP.
I could be wrong about that - but the second set of marks in 6.0 would not be so high if every other jump was either telegraphed or had a sloppy landing - or both.
As a fan I think I prefer a well done flutz over a sloppy but CoP acceptable lutz.
For me, this is one of the serious problems with CoP. The artistic beauty of figure skating is taking a backseat to tecnical requirements that can sometimes only be seen on a slow motion replay. Now they are asking for high definition slow motion replays. I say why stop there? Let's use laser technology to measure a as much as we can of each skaters performance. Many experts feel Cop is leading to less creative skating and we have heard the word "robotic" used. This is a not a good trend in a sport that has seen it's fan base sink in recent years.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 29, 2009

On the Mao and Carolina hypothesis: while I realize that the ISU acknowledges an attempted Lutz and the immediate penalty is weak,

for me, I see the attempted lutz as a folly. A strong back outside edge and rock over to a back inside could be interpreted as a transition. Who can say there was an attempt? The skater then gets into the comfort mode of a Flip for an easier 3 air rotations and more than likely an easier landing.

The Jump is called a Lutz - one can tell that by the take off. if it doesn't take off by definition then it is not a lutz. Much harder to do 3 air turns from a counter rotation take off than a regular air rotation.

The penalty, I think it should just get a no score jump but since it will be scored for the probable easier rotation Flip, what can I say?

I do feel sorry for the vast majority of skaters who can do a proper lutz and not get special credit as the imposters do.

Good news that Mao has gotten the proper lutz. She was a victim of rushing to competitions for her air turns and not basics, but she has learned.

Carolina has a proper lutz and I expect she will not botch her routines this year.

janetfan · Jun 29, 2009

Joesitz said:
Carolina has a proper lutz and I expect she will not botch her routines this year.

I understand what you are saying Joe. But is it still a good lutz if it has a sloppy landing? Do you think more skaters should be doing a double lutz?
If both jumps were clean how many points would a skater lose going from a 3 lutz to a 2 lutz?
Why did I watch skating for so many years but only in the last 4-6 years am I hearing so much concern about these edge problems? Has this extra attention to edges done anything at all to help or improve the world of skating?

I dont know the answers - this is just stuff I wonder about.

i love to skate · Jun 29, 2009

janetfan said:
As a fan I think I prefer a well done flutz over a sloppy but CoP acceptable lutz.
For me, this is one of the serious problems with CoP. The artistic beauty of figure skating is taking a backseat to tecnical requirements that can sometimes only be seen on a slow motion replay. Now they are asking for high definition slow motion replays. I say why stop there? Let's use laser technology to measure a as much as we can of each skaters performance. Many experts feel Cop is leading to less creative skating and we have heard the word "robotic" used. This is a not a good trend in a sport that has seen it's fan base sink in recent years.

I much prefer rewarding proper technique than having a skater coast through their career using consistently bad technique, with no apparent effort to change it -Tara Lipinski's flutz for example. Lots of sports are going to HD replay. Hockey goals are routinely checked with this and you even have the "Hawk Eye" in tennis to see if the ball landed on the line. I think this is just an evolution in sports.

I still see enormous amounts of beauty in skating. Some fairly recent examples; Patrick Chan's 2009 short program, Virtue and Moir's Umbrella's of Cherbourg, Dubreuil and Lauzon's Somewhere in Time, Yu-Na Kim's 2009 Short Program. To me, all of these programs offer beautiful movement, great flow, innovation (D/L's lifts), and great jumps (Chan and Kim). What more could you ask for?

janetfan · Jun 29, 2009

i love to skate said:
I much prefer rewarding proper technique than having a skater coast through their career using consistently bad technique, with no apparent effort to change it -Tara Lipinski's flutz for example. Lots of sports are going to HD replay. Hockey goals are routinely checked with this and you even have the "Hawk Eye" in tennis to see if the ball landed on the line. I think this is just an evolution in sports.

I still see enormous amounts of beauty in skating. Some fairly recent examples; Patrick Chan's 2009 short program, Virtue and Moir's Umbrella's of Cherbourg, Dubreuil and Lauzon's Somewhere in Time, Yu-Na Kim's 2009 Short Program. To me, all of these programs offer beautiful movement, great flow, innovation (D/L's lifts), and great jumps (Chan and Kim). What more could you ask for?

All I want is to see Caroline Zhang on Team USA and skating well in Vancouver. I will concede everything else to you. :yes:
But I did wonder if so much fuss is helping skating. I am in USA and you are in Canada. It is getting harder and harder for us to see much of this beauty.

i love to skate · Jun 29, 2009

janetfan said:
All I want is to see Caroline Zhang on Team USA and skating well in Vancouver. I will concede everything else to you. :yes:
But I did wonder if so much fuss is helping skating. I am in USA and you are in Canada. It is getting harder and harder for us to see much of this beauty.

I do enjoy Caroline Zhang! If she would just fix her technique and get a bit more speed - especially going into her double axel I would be a huge fan. Her spins are amazing! I wish I could see more skating but I think what largely led to the decreased attention of this sport was the over-saturation skating received in the Mid to Late 1990's. Every weekend there was some show with skaters and singers and even I never bothered to watch those. I found them boring and sometimes embarrassing! Hopefully this will not happen again.

Skating needs excitement - and I think that's exactly what will happen in the next few months leading up to the Olympics and especially at the Games. Joannie has been all over the internet here in Canada making red carpet appearances - along with Tessa Virtue and Jeff Buttle. Doing interviews, receiving training grants, having articles written about her and doing TV spots - along with V/M and Patrick! :thumbsup:

Here is an article on the grant Joannie received as well as a blurb about Patrick who recently had $80,000 fundraised for him!

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/06/25/gold-doesn’t-come-cheap/

I really see skating making a comeback. I will keep my fingers crossed!!

janetfan · Jun 29, 2009

i love to skate said:
I
Skating needs excitement - and I think that's exactly what will happen in the next few months leading up to the Olympics and especially at the Games. Joannie has been all over the internet here in Canada making red carpet appearances - along with Tessa Virtue and Jeff Buttle. Doing interviews, having articles written about her and doing TV spots - along with V/M and Patrick! :thumbsup: I really see skating making a comeback. I will keep my fingers crossed!!

I think there are aspects of Caroline's skating that are as beautiful as anything I have ever seen on the ice. I do hope her new height and strength will be an asset and let her improve a few areas that will boost her scores.
An Olympic year is always great - and Canada is a wonderful host nation.
I think Canada has a stronger group of skaters heading to Vancouver than what we have seen for several Olympics. So I am not surprised the fever is spreading up North. There is not much buzz in the USA yet - but I guess it will start to build come this Fall.

Mathman · Jun 29, 2009

janetfan said:
As a fan I think I prefer a well done flutz over a sloppy but CoP acceptable lutz.

In response to criticism that the CoP has made skating less enjoyable to watch for the average fan, Mr. Cinquanta recently replied somehting like this. The ISU is a sports regulatory body, not a marketing organization.

In other words, the point is to make the sport a better sport and the athletes more accomplished practitioners of the sport. If the audience doesn't like the result, I guess they they can eat cake.

Anyway, Joe's point is that if your Lutz takes off from the wrong edge, you haven't just done a bad Lutz. You haven't done any kind of Lutz and all, good or bad, so you should get 0 points. (Others disagree.)

Tonichelle · Jun 29, 2009

I enjoy the new judging system. even with the math it's easier for me to understand, and I grew up watching the 6.0 system and skaters.

and there are just as many uninspired, dull, and horrible competitive programs from 'back then' as there are now... we just see the past with rose colored glasses.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 30, 2009

janetfan said:
I understand what you are saying Joe. But is it still a good lutz if it has a sloppy landing? Do you think more skaters should be doing a double lutz?
If both jumps were clean how many points would a skater lose going from a 3 lutz to a 2 lutz?
Why did I watch skating for so many years but only in the last 4-6 years am I hearing so much concern about these edge problems? Has this extra attention to edges done anything at all to help or improve the world of skating?

I dont know the answers - this is just stuff I wonder about.

I understand your questions. Alll skating elements have definitions, and the definition of the lutz jump is quite clear. All jumps get their name from the take-off. I think you are being a bit glib on accepting any old take-off is ok for a Lutz. The rest of all the jumps have the same air turns to the skaters' best side, and the same back outside landings (except for certain jumps that land on back inside edges - the Lutz landing is in the mainstream of landings). The one part of the Lutz that is different from all other jumps is the take-off and its ensuing counter rotation in the air. If this is not accomplished in the element, then it can not be justified as a Lutz, and therefor any attempt at it should be considered failed, and the resulting Flip should be part of the zayak rule.

If skaters can do a proper double lutz, it is shocking that they can not do a triple.

A sloppy landing on any jump can be scored as a - in the GoEs.

If you prefer sloppy take-offs rather than sloppy landings, then you might think of limiting your interests in skating to Show Skating. It's like who cares? The Sport is different.

Also you could rally for an additional legal jump - the Change-Edge Toe Off Jump.

janetfan · Jun 30, 2009

Joesitz said:
.

If you prefer sloppy take-offs rather than sloppy landings, then you might think of limiting your interests in skating to Show Skating. It's like who cares? The Sport is different.

Also you could rally for an additional legal jump - the Change-Edge Toe Off Jump.

I will take the last option, this new jump you have invented.

I still say if a skater takes off properly and lands improperly they have not done a proper jump. CoP is willing to overlook this with a small penalty or no penalty or heaven forbid, no bonus points. The beauty of the jump has been ruined by bad execution and faulty technique. Whether the mistake is on the take off, in the air position, or on the landing it is still a a mistake. It should be treated exactly as what it was, a sloppy jump. If you like a good take off and a sloppy landing that is OK with me. i just like something better.

npavel · Jun 30, 2009

If you look at Miki Andos LP worlds 2007 you notice that she did the wrong take off and the comment on TV was: what are the judges going to do? This was a flip, not a lutz and she has already done one. Are they going to give her 0 point credit for the reply of the same jump? Than the result, she got a lutz, but it wasn't. She won the challenge, but hadn't she got credit, she hadn't won. Was it right, wrong...? I think there were need to clarify and the result is the e-calls we have now.

Mathman · Jun 30, 2009

Joesitz said:
Also you could rally for an additional legal jump - the Change-Edge Toe Off Jump.

That was exactly the proposal of the international coaches' committee that suggested sweeping changes to the IJS a year or so ago.

The ISU did not take any of their ideas seriously. The chairman of the technical committee (Alexander Lakernik) did not even forward their letter to the full committee.

janetfan · Jun 30, 2009

Mathman said:
That was exactly the proposal of the international coaches' committee that suggested sweeping changes to the IJS a year or so ago. .

And what does it say when the International Coaches Committe wants sweeping changes? Is it possible this group knows a bit more about figure skating than speedy?

Mathman · Jun 30, 2009

^ It's possible, but we never found out exactly who these "international coaches" were. As far as I can tell, they were just some guys who decided to get together and speak their piece.

Although Cinquanta himself came up through the speed skating side of the ISU, there are many people in the organization who do know a lot about figure skating.

Anyway, the proposal was to eliminate the flip and the Lutz jumps altogether, and replace them by a generic jump which took off from whichever edge the skater wanted ro. They made a number of other suggestions, too, like doubling the value of quads.

janetfan · Jun 30, 2009

Mathman said:
^ It's possible, but we never found out exactly who these "international coaches" were. As far as I can tell, they were just some guys who decided to get together and speak their piece.

Although Cinquanta himself came up through the speed skating side of the ISU, there are many people in the organization who do know a lot about figure skating.

Antway, the proposal was to eliminate the flip and the Lutz jumps altogether, and replace them by a generic jump which took off from whichever edge the skater wanted ro. They made a number of other suggestions, too, like doubling the value of quads.

BTW, aren't there any rules regarding what constitutes a proper and correct jump landing for flips and lutzes under CoP. And what about air positions? Rotations? And the approach to a jump? Surely the take-off edge doesn't count for 100% of a jumps marking criteria.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 30, 2009

npavel said:
If you look at Miki Andos LP worlds 2007 you notice that she did the wrong take off and the comment on TV was: what are the judges going to do? This was a flip, not a lutz and she has already done one. Are they going to give her 0 point credit for the reply of the same jump? Than the result, she got a lutz, but it wasn't. She won the challenge, but hadn't she got credit, she hadn't won. Was it right, wrong...? I think there were need to clarify and the result is the e-calls we have now.

If I were judge, I would say she did two Flips. However, the ISU in its strange way of looking at the elements would say she rotated in the air 3 times, and did a correct no UR landing and therefore should get credit for the parts of the jump of the second Flip. Zayak stay away. You figure.

janetfan said:
I will take the last option, this new jump you have invented.
I still say if a skater takes off properly and lands improperly they have not done a proper jump. CoP is willing to overlook this with a small penalty or no penalty or heaven forbid, no bonus points. The beauty of the jump has been ruined by bad execution and faulty technique. Whether the mistake is on the take off, in the air position, or on the landing it is still a a mistake. It should be treated exactly as what it was, a sloppy jump. If you like a good take off and a sloppy landing that is OK with me. i just like something better.

that is easy to say when you do not know what was the intended jump which you can only identify by the take-off. I just wish you would confirm that the name of a jump comes from the take-off and nothing else because everything else is the same in the major jumps. Choice of Air Turns; Good back outside landing, just like the Flip, Loop, Toe Loop, Salchow, and even Axel. There is nothing special in air turns or landings for the lutz except the whole jump is difficult once it takes off on the defined edge.

Now after you name the jump, you may add your personal opinion, that the take-off is not as important as the landing, and if it turns into a flip, so be it. You'll be looking for a good landing. However, serious fans of figure skating would not agree with you.

PS. The ISU is easy on the take-off but ever so harsh on the UR landings which are often solid with good outflow. You figure.

janetfan · Jun 30, 2009

Joesitz said:
If I were judge, I would say she did two Flips. However, the ISU in its strange way of looking at the elements would say she rotated in the air 3 times, and did a correct no UR landing and therefore should get credit for the parts of the jump of the second Flip. Zayak stay away. You figure.

that is easy to say when you do not know what was the intended jump which you can only identify by the take-off. I just wish you would confirm that the name of a jump comes from the take-off and nothing else because everything else is the same in the major jumps. Choice of Air Turns; Good back outside landing, just like the Flip, Loop, Toe Loop, Salchow, and even Axel. There is nothing special in air turns or landings for the lutz except the whole jump is difficult once it takes off on the defined edge.

Now after you name the jump, you may add your personal opinion, that the take-off is not as important as the landing, and if it turns into a flip, so be it. You'll be looking for a good landing. However, serious fans of figure skating would not agree with you.

PS. The ISU is easy on the take-off but ever so harsh on the UR landings which are often solid with good outflow. You figure.

You make good points Joe. It is not that I disagree with you but I like to enjoy the entire jump. And yes, I would rather see an underotated jump with a clean landing and good flow. Since I am not judging this is much more pleasant to watch than a fully rotated jump but with a shaky, wobbly or off balance landing.
And if "serious" skaters care so much about this - why didn't I EVER HEAR such conversation until the last 4 years. Did Oksana UR? Did Kristi flutz? Did Boitano and Orser lip? Did Midori UR her 3A? Did Katerina ever UR? What about Linda, Roz, Dorothy, Janet and Peggy. I saw many of those skaters Live and also on TV. I never heard all this talk that only "true skating fans" care about. Did Button get into this stuff even 10 years ago. We both know he barely mentioned it. And when he did start to talk about it generally it was to complain about CoP.
The truth is that even a casual skating fan can see a sloppy landing. When judges start using secret hi-def slow motion replay to find something that is all but invisible to Live or TV audiences skating will lose even more fans.
My problem is that I don't want to see a perfect sport but with no fan base. It can't sustain itself that way. To me, this stuff has to be more fan friendly - if skating wants to hold onto to or increase it's fan base in N. America.

merrybari · Jun 30, 2009

janetfan said:
The truth is that even a casual skating fan can see a sloppy landing. When judges start using secret hi-def slow motion replay to find something that is all but invisible to Live or TV audiences skating will lose even more fans.
My problem is that I don't want to see a perfect sport but with no fan base. It can't sustain itself that way. To me, this stuff has to be more fan friendly - if skating wants to hold onto to or increase it's fan base in N. America.

I agree! I've said all along that if you can't see it with the naked eye, it doesn't matter! Plus I believe that the super slo-mo has an inherent tendency to distort somewhat anyway. The sport needs fans just as much as the fans need the sport. Neither can exist without the other. Drive the fans away with this knit-picking and - voila!

Also, I will add that they are penalizing take-offs to some degree with those edge calls that shave points too.

i love to skate · Jun 30, 2009

merrybari said:
I agree! I've said all along that if you can't see it with the naked eye, it doesn't matter! Plus I believe that the super slo-mo has an inherent tendency to distort somewhat anyway. The sport needs fans just as much as the fans need the sport. Neither can exist without the other. Drive the fans away with this knit-picking and - voila!

Most sports are using machines or computers instead of people though. Tennis uses the Hawk Eye, Hockey routinely checks goals with HD Cameras, Swimming uses a machine to see when the swimmer touched the wall, Gymnastics has slow-motion replays, Football has a challenge and review system in place. The list goes on and on. That's just where the sporting world is headed.

What will You Be Looking for from Your Favorite Skaters?

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