Lalique ladies results (SPOILER)

Freeskate result:
http://www.isufs.org/results/tll2003/seg004.htm

1 Sasha COHEN USA 127.81 61.01 66.80 8.35 7.90 8.50 8.50 8.50 0.00 #9
2 Shizuka ARAKAWA JPN 109.78 50.90 58.88 7.65 6.90 7.45 7.50 7.30 0.00 #6
3 Julia SEBESTYEN HUN 104.88 50.56 54.32 7.20 6.50 6.85 6.75 6.65 0.00 #10
4 Beatrisa LIANG USA 97.96 49.08 48.88 6.15 6.00 6.30 6.25 5.85 0.00 #2
5 Alisa DREI FIN 94.39 44.31 50.08 6.35 6.05 6.25 6.30 6.35 0.00 #8
6 Anne Sophie CALVEZ FRA 92.54 46.38 46.16 6.45 5.30 5.65 5.85 5.60 0.00 #7
7 Annette DYTRT GER 86.23 40.87 45.36 5.90 5.30 5.90 5.65 5.60 0.00 #3
8 Jenna McCORKELL GBR 79.76 37.28 42.48 5.40 5.20 5.25 5.50 5.20 0.00 #5
9 Julia LAUTOWA AUT 78.08 36.88 41.20 5.35 4.85 5.20 5.10 5.25 0.00 #1
10 Candice DIDIER FRA 69.68 32.56 37.12 4.85 4.45 4.65 4.90 4.35 0.00 #4

Final result:
http://www.isufs.org/results/tll2003/cat002rs.htm

1 Sasha COHEN USA 197.19 1 1
2 Shizuka ARAKAWA JPN 172.12 2 2
3 Julia SEBESTYEN HUN 163.32 3 3
4 Beatrisa LIANG USA 143.94 7 4
5 Alisa DREI FIN 141.91 5 5
6 Anne Sophie CALVEZ FRA 140.44 4 6
7 Annette DYTRT GER 132.53 6 7
8 Jenna McCORKELL GBR 123.98 9 8
9 Julia LAUTOWA AUT 123.66 8 9
10 Candice DIDIER FRA 113.30 10 10

Good for Bebe -- pulling up from 7th to 4th!

Ptichka said:

Good for Bebe -- pulling up from 7th to 4th!

Click to expand...

And the best thing is that we'll get to see her in both broadcasts!

Way to go SASHA!! Also to all the other ladies, including Shizuka and Bebe. I can't wait to see this on TV!

Ptichka - ITA. Bebe moving up from 7th to 4th. We better see this skate on TV.

Joe

Man, I just LOVE seeing all these numbers, lol! Seriously, any adjustments the judges might have made in the presentation scores since Cup of China notwithstanding, it gets my old statistics juices going to see all these marks. Looks as if we might have a genuine rivalry this season between Sasha and Shizuka, hopefully a friendly one. And Julia Sebastyen is another journeyman skater like Liashenko who seems to be benefitting from the COP. Yet we still have young'uns like Bebe able to make a good showing. The COP definitely needs tweaking, but at least in the overall results so far, I see things I like. I like that Sebastyen and Liashenko--a couple of "old broads" (just kidding)--aren't being penalized just for staying around. Neither Sebastyen nor Liashenko ring my bell, but they both have solid basics and several excellent areas in their technique and IMO, just because they don't have great "wow," great beauty, or some form of great "X" factor shouldn't keep them off the podium. I can't help but wonder how a skater like Tonia Kwiatkowski would have fared under the COP. I think she would have benifitted from it.

However, having said that, personally I'd still like to have the world champion in whatever discipline have that "X" factor, whatever it may be, but OTOH I like seeing hardworking skaters with good skills win a bronze or silver at whatever event if they skate well even if they don't have the snap, crackle, pop. I mean, how cool is it that Sebasyen and Liang finished 3rd and 4th? Even if the results had been reversed, I'd think it was very cool.

And congrats to Sasha for winning all three of her GP events.
Rgirl

I posted this on the pairs thread, since the subject came up, but it really belongs here. It is interesting to me that the scores which the judges awarded to Sasha's programs absolutely did not budge though three events. SA, 197.35; SC, 197.60; Trophee Lalique, 197.19.

This despite the fact that her performances were by no means of equal quality. (I haven't seen her Trophee Lalique skates yet -- from everything I heard, she skated significantly better in France than in Canada.)

So the judges are a model of consistency, even though the skaters might not be.

Mathman

Interesting point, Mathman - My theory is that Sasha is the number one skater in the GP and before the competitions, that subjectivity is in the minds of the judges. Hence, the similar results in all three competitions. The base mark is known; the goe "should" be the same based on the particular skater, so if there is no obvious meltdown, the scores are pretty much decided before the music begins.

As I've said before, the new system puts on additional burdens for the judges in that they must rate each element be it spins, jumps, footwork, moves in field, etc., instantly. As judges, they are not trained for this instant scoring. There 6.0 job was to evaluate the skater's contents of program together with the manner of performance as a whole. Also very subjective but much easier than grading each individual element.

The new method is better but my question is Are the judges up to the challenge? I really don't think they are, just my opinion. The results of the top 3 skaters would be the same in either system. That is why I am theorizing that scores for a particular skater will not vary much regardless how well or badly the skate is.

Joe

I agree, Joe, but I think that applies only to top skaters who have no close competition, such as Sasha and Plushy. If Sasha had been competing against a Kwan or a Slutskaya at SC, where she had two failed combos, I think we would have seen a lower mark than the ones she got in SA and Lalique.

I agree with you Joe ... and chuckm too

My thinking (hoping?) is that the judges will be able to handle it with some practice. This is such a new system ... I feel they will need some time to get it right.

And I absolutely agree that had MK or Irina been competing, the marks for Sasha would have been alot more conservative ... considering that she has basically done 5 triple programs.

NOTE: I posted this on "The Edge" on the "Another Note on the COP" thread. Since it addresses the same issue Mathman and others brought up, I thought I'd repost it here. I will add that I don't agree that the judges have a preconceived idea of the scores they are going to give the "top" skaters, and the scores for Sasha do not support the notion that the judges are scoring her on what they "expect" her to do rather than what she is actually doing. I would agree that for SA and Skate Canada that the judges were still getting used to the system and no doubt their scores are not as accurate for any skater, not just Sasha, as they will be a year from now. Also, lest we forget, Sasha won every GP competition by a lot, 25 points at Lalique and IMO deserved to. I LOVE Shizuka's skating and I think she is certainly capable of outskating Sasha even if they both skate well. But in the two times they competed, Sasha was the winner, no question. I know that's not the issue, the issue is the 197 points. I hope some of you will take the time to read my analysis, even if you end up disagreeing. I think if you look at the Detailed Results, consider the situation (Sasha competed in three of the first four times the COP was used), consider the changes Cohen made to her SP and LP, and consider the changes the judges made to the way they scored the Components starting with Cup of China, that the "judges decide in advance" idea will not seem like the only option to explain this. Rgirl

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quote:
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Originally posted by tharrtell
Rgal - Sasha was awarded 197 points for all three of her GP events, but she didn't give the same performance three times. Maybe they new in advance what they were going to award and that's why they can enter the scores so quickly??
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But Sasha did not get the 197 points with the same points awarded for the same things. For example, in her SP at Lalique, she had upgraded her spiral sequence from a Level 2 to a Level 3 by adding a change edge and another change before the fan spiral. In her Lalique LP, her Component scores were in the 6's and 7's rather than 7's and 8's, which also happened to skaters at Cup of China, lower Component scores for all skaters, which was explained as the judges being tutored by the ISU in how to more accurately score the Components. So for her LP in Lalique, Sasha had higher Element scores in some areas because she had added more difficulty (seperentine instead of straightline footwork; more difficulty on one combination spin) but she had lower Component scores. Had Sasha received the same Component scores at Lalique that she had at SA and Skate Canada, she would have had over 200 points. With the way the two high and two low scores are thrown out for each Element and Component, plus the scores of two random judges thrown out, IMO there is just no way that the judges can know in advance what scores they are going to give a skater.

I'm no schooled judge in the COP but just for the heck of it, I set up a piece of paper so I'd just have to mark in the Element score and the Component score. It simply is not hard. In fact, if I were a judge using the computer system plus having a caller, I'd find it easier than the 6.0 system. To me, the 6.0 system now seems so clunky and inaccurate. As was demonstrated with Elena Liashenko, she not only moved up from 7th to 1st at Cup of China, but did so skating first in the last flight.

Let me put it this way: When you first started on the Internet, didn't it seem incredibly fast? Like "How will I ever understand all this?" Now it's like "Hurry UP!" Or typing. When I learned to type on a manual typewriter (some of you may not even know what I'm talking about, lol), I could type about 50 words per minute. On an IBM Selectric, about 75 wpm. On a computer keyboard, on a good day, 120 wpm. Part of it was the technology and part of it was just practice. Or heck, think gameshows like "Jeopardy." At least the judges know what they're going to see. Remember, judges can and do watch practices.

No doubt the COP definitely needs improvements IMO, but as far as entering the scores, I see no problem. Remember, the judges are not watching their "favorite skaters" (okay, some are, lol) the way a fan does. They're doing a job and concentrating on specific elements one after another. True, it's fast and it makes me think the judges really should get paid. My only concern is that at large competitions like Nationals and Worlds, the judges are going to be mentally exhausted by the time they get to the fina skaters. But once you understand the COP and have the technology to help you (I just had a piece of paper with the Elements and Components listed), it really is not hard. I just wish people would look at the Detailed Results before they make comments like the above--and you know how much I respect you and your opinions, Tharttell, so I'm thinking maybe you were kind of joking, yes?
Rgirl

nymkfan51 said:

And I absolutely agree that had MK or Irina been competing, the marks for Sasha would have been alot more conservative ... considering that she has basically done 5 triple programs.

Click to expand...

Hi Nymkfan! You could of course be right about Sasha's marks being more conservative had Michelle or Irina been competing; however, Sasha has been doing six triples, the Lutz and flip in combination, and a 2Axel in her LP. She goofed up at Skate Canada, but at SA and Lalique she did all of the above. Unless you're saying that her Lutz is a flip, but even "No such thing as a flutz" Joe posted a while back that he read up on it and indeed an intended Lutz that goes to the inside edge at the last moment is technically known as a flutz and is still considered a Lutz, just not a good one, with the score depending on how bad the flutz is. Also, and this is just a point in general, it's the caller who decides what a jump is; the judges can only add or subtract 1, 2, or 3 points depending on problems in the jump. Thus far, the judges don't seem to be taking off for minor flutzes though I haven't seen anybody do a major flutz yet. Mostly they deduct for step outs on the landings, slight touchdowns with a hand, and two-footed landings. I've seen some very wonky landings with way wide swinging legs get full credit and no deductions, which seems odd to me. But ITA that when the judges get through this first year, they will be a lot harder on the little things and a lot more accurate. Plus, I expect they'll make some significant changes to the whole system.
Rgirl

Quote:

I will add that I don't agree that the judges have a preconceived idea of the scores they are going to give the "top" skaters
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r-Girl - They do not have to have a preconceived idea of the scores they going to give the 'top' skaters. They and the Callers are given a list of elements which are to be executed by each skater. It's the plus and minuses that count. Imo, the top skaters and the favorites will be subjectively given these plus and minus additions or subtractions. Tarasova, herself, has said it will be easier or as easier for judges to cheat in this system.

It would be easy to give Sasha or any other flutzer a plus or minus addition or subtraction subjectively. (I am not nitpicking Sasha but her name did come up in the post.) The rationale could be 'but she had such beautiful run out'. You'll agree beauty is in the mind of the beholder and very subjective from one to another, but doesn't that belong with presentation?

Of course, this is personal because I am a believer that although it's semi official, a flutz is a flip by definition. Given that rationale and I agree it is just mine, the flutz should be given full credit for a lutz and a minus three because it is not a lutz in the true sense of the jump. I've already gone through the business of Sasha's no combos at Skate Canada and given credit for two separate flips (double toe not done). The Zayak rule, so I've been told, is waived for attempted combos that fail. You figure.

Sorry, I am can not agree that other factors affected Sasha's scores to be similar. I will say the same thing about other skaters anytime.

The CoP has a good concept but it is in it's infancy and criticisms should be pointed out and not just glossed over. We want this thing to work by the Olympics in Torino otherwise there will be no more figure skating in the Olympics.

The judges know what is on the list and they can figure out what to give each skater. They will, and we need more safeguards to prevent them from doing injustice to the sport.

Joe