Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP

sleepyjl · Dec 4, 2009

DarkestMoon said:
But that's just speculation. You're treating it as some natural behavior that humans do. Humans make mistakes, yes. Humans acting within the norms is not natural but a result of socialization. It's easier to be part of the pack than be a freak. My point is that you can't just say that since X comp is held in a Y's country where Y and Z have conflicts, judges must score according to Y. That's just an assumption that the judges will be lynched for doing otherwise or that the country in question will withdraw sponsorships.

You're misreading what I said. Judges are not consciously making these biased calls; it's not because they're worried about getting lynched or the loss of sponsorships or even about peer pressure. It's just the way people behave. Go to any athletic competition and ask the fans to keep track of penalties objectively and voila, they believe (honestly) that their opponents are committing more penalties. "Well, duh," you say. But what is astounding is that you can predict how non-fans (i.e., people who have no investment in one team or another) will count penalties based on which team's section they are sitting in!!! It's just how humans are hard-wired. They end up identifying with the people around them and show bias against people the surrounding crowd sees as the "other" without even realizing it.

so_proud · Dec 4, 2009

museksk8r said:
I think it's unbelievable for anyone to claim that anyone at this event is out to get Yu-Na considering she singled her solo triple and received a downgrade on her 3+3 combination, yet still managed to score a 65+, less than a point behind a clean Miki Ando, which doesn't seem right to me (and I'm a Yu-Na fan). I say she and her fans should be relieved by that score. Had anyone else made the same technical mistakes, they would have scored in the 50s range or lower.

To most of Yu-na fans, the issue is about the wrong judges on DG not just about her overall scores or her place.

Had anyone else made the same technical mistakes on the same quality 3-3 and performed with the same skating quality throughout SP, I am sure they would have scored no lower than Yuna has.

gourry · Dec 4, 2009

Mathman said:
The inconventient truth is that every jump is both prerotated and underrotated. If you think about the mechanics of jumping while turning, how could it be otherwise? The typical well-performed "triple" jump has about 2.25 actual rotations in the air.

Uh-uh. At least not a well-performed lutz. Just take a look at Yuna's or Miki's lutz from today's SP. There are virtually no prerotations at all.

sleepyjl · Dec 4, 2009

gourry said:
Uh-uh. At least not a well-performed lutz. Just take a look at Yuna's or Miki's lutz from today's SP. There are virtually no prerotations at all.

I agree. Lutzes and flips are, from a mechanical perspective, actually pretty hard to pre-rotate.

Mathman · Dec 4, 2009

Well, I just got to see it on the full television screen on Universal sports. I have to agree with So Proud. Dispite the flip and the downgrade, the overall quality of Kim's skating is simply in a class by itself (unless Mao Asada comes back to full form.

)

goury said:
Uh-uh. At least not a well-performed lutz. Just take a look at Yuna's or Miki's lutz from today's SP. There are virtually no prerotations at all.

Quite true. I think that is why there are so few women who can do a true triple Lutz. Getting around a full three revolutions from a true Lutz edge is just beyond the capability of most lady skaters.

evangeline · Dec 4, 2009

prettykeys said:
First of all, you need to read a little more carefully. evangeline was being sarcastic about the "evil Japanese." Of course, she never leapt out when rabid Japanese fans were saying how Team YuNa etc. were paying the ISU, etc., but whatever.

:disapp: Oh great, now I'm being painted as an anti-YuNa (/un-YuNa?) fan.

I'm too lazy to trawl through my old posts for *proof*, but I really, really dislike it when people automatically assume a skater is over/underscored or being targetted just because of their ethnicity (or because of the judges/tech caller's ethnicity). For instance, in this thread alone, I've also disagreed with comments that Alena Leonova was overscored just because she is Russian...just ask Janetfan to see how much I hound him when he says European skaters are being overscored because of all those evil Euro judges on the panel.

As for not leaping out at rabid Japanese fans, I actually don't remember seeing them around GS for awhile. They're either licking their wounds at Mao's apparent demise, or off on Youtube (which I've given up commenting on) uploading their stupid videos. But if they drop by GS anytime soon, I'll be sure to make some pithy comments.

YN fan · Dec 4, 2009

DarkestMoon said:
Raging hyperboles aside, UR calls on what looked like real-time acceptable jumps were made last season. How many of you were shaking your fists when other ladies got the call? How many of you were flipping off over what looked like a good jump in real time and but got URed at instant replay?

The question is really whether you're all upset over a bad judging call or upset because Yu-na got a bad call. If you truly about the first over the latter, yeah, I do hope that many of you will ride in like a white knight for EVERY "misjudged" skater.

For these problems and complaints, I'm surprised there is no Universal tech caller from ISU, like a Nellie Kim in gymnastics, as the honcho who is called onto the floor when needed to make tough calls.

I sort of agree and disagree. I don't know much about skating but Yuna is the most talked-about skater in the world right now. I know some skating fans are tired of hearing fans talking about Yuna only just like some golf fans are tired of hearing about Tiger Woods only. I wish other skaters get as much recognition as well for their excellence.

However, Yuna is the current world champion and probably the best female skater under this Cop era so far. it is a natural tendency for Yuna fans and other skating fans to state their opinions strongly about fair call or unfair call aganist Yuna more than any other skater because she is the best in the world right now. After all, she is the only skater who has "is this skater overmarked?" thread on this forum, I think....

That aside, I can't say the call was fair or unfair because, like I said, I don't know much about skating. I will live with the judge's decision as a fan. I'm happy Yuna got 65 given the fact that she made two major errors. some people suggested that that was still too high because other skaters who make mistakes would get around mid 50. that is a little bit unfair observation. Yuna is not like the other skaters. Her skating and presentation as a whole is superior to other skaters' skating. there is a reason she is a world champion.

To my fellow Yuna fans. Hey, it's not like the end of the world. Yuna still has a great chance of winning this event. If Yuna doesn't win this event, then so be it. I would rather see Yuna win at the olympic and lose all the GP event than see Yuna win all GP events and not win the olympic.

DarkestMoon · Dec 4, 2009

sleepyjl said:
Go back and look at the UR calls over the years and I'd bet my life savings that there have been more questionable UR calls against the rivals of (and for the benefit of) the local country's skaters. Just human nature, folks.

And so, I decided to go back and look through the GP season of 07-08, because that's when URs (and edge calls) were introduced and because those were the results I could find on ISU.

I used country names when there is more than one skater at an event from the same country. I only include the big names and the local skaters.

Skate America:

USA: in the SP; the American women combined had a total of 4. In the FS, a total of 8.
Japan: a total of two in the SP; in the FS, a total of 3

Skate Canada:

Canada: in both SP and FS; none
Japan: total of 1 in SP; total of 1 in FS
USA: 1 in the SP; total of 1 in FS

Cup of China:

Carolina: none in SP; 1 in FS
USA: 1 in SP; in 8 in FS
Yu-na: none; none
China: none in SP; 6 in FS

Eric Bompard:

USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: 3 in SP; 5 in FS
Dider (France): 1 in SP; 1 FS

Cup of Russia:

Yu-na: none in SP; none in FS
Japan: none; 4 in FS
Russia: 1 in SP; 4 in FS
Joannie: none; none

NHK Trophy:

Carolina: none in SP; none
Japan: none; 4
USA: none; 3

GPF in Torino:

Yu-na: none in SP; none
Carolina: none; none
USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: none; none

Italics are for home country skaters and bold is for skaters with the most total URs. Take a good look (and ignore different judges in different comps for a second).

museksk8r · Dec 4, 2009

YN fan said:
some people suggested that that was still too high because other skaters who make mistakes would get around mid 50. that is a little bit unfair observation. Yuna is not like the other skaters. Her skating and presentation as a whole is superior to other skaters' skating. there is a reason she is a world champion.

Sorry, but I disagree. Yu-Na singling a planned triple and being downgraded on a triple+triple attempt and still being less than 1 point close to a clean Miki Ando is just plain wrong. It's not like Miki is the same calibre as someone like Mira Leung or Tugba Karademir. She's a former world champ and the reigning world bronze medalist for crying out loud. Kim is not that much better a skater than Ando, IMO.

R.D. · Dec 4, 2009

Yeah, not too convinced as to why some Yuna fans are making a HUGE deal out of this. If she goes clean tomorrow and wins by like 40 points you guys will practically forget this ever happened.

gourry · Dec 4, 2009

DarkestMoon said:
Skate America:

USA: in the SP; the American women combined had a total of 3. In the FS, a total of 8.
Japan: a total of two in the SP; in the FS, a total of 3

If I remember correctly, at least 5 of the US downgrades were from Caroline. Oh well.

DarkestMoon said:
Cup of China:

Carolina: none in SP; 1 in FS
USA: 1 in SP; in 8 in FS
Yu-na: none; none
China: none in SP; 6 in FS

And here was Caroline again. Poor thing.

Again, IIRC, Caroline and Ashley had really tough season that season DGwise.
So the number doesn't really support anything when there is a big time underrotater....

sleepyjl · Dec 4, 2009

DarkestMoon said:
And so, I decided to go back and look through the GP season of 07-08, because that's when URs (and edge calls) were introduced and because those were the results I could find on ISU. I used country names when there is more than one skater at an event from the same country. I only include the big names and the local skaters.

Skate America:

USA: in the SP; the American women combined had a total of 3. In the FS, a total of 8.
Japan: a total of two in the SP; in the FS, a total of 3

Skate Canada:

Canada: in both SP and FS; none
Japan: total of 1 in SP; total of 1 in FS
USA: 1 in the SP; total of 1 in FS

Cup of China:

Carolina: none in SP; 1 in FS
USA: 1 in SP; in 8 in FS
Yu-na: none; none
China: none in SP; 6 in FS

Eric Bompard:

USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: 3 in SP; 5 in FS
Dider (France): 1 in SP; 1 FS

Cup of Russia:

Yu-na: none in SP; none in FS
Japan: none; 4 in FS
Russia: 1 in SP; 4 in FS
Joannie: none; none

NHK Trophy:

Carolina: none in SP; none
Japan: none; 4
USA: none; 3

GPF in Torino:

Yu-na: none in SP; none
Carolina: none; none
USA: 1 in SP; 2 in FS
Japan: none; none

Italics are for home country skaters and bold is for skaters with the most total URs. Take a good look (and ignore different judges in different comps for a second).

Thanks for the all the hard legwork! Fascinating to see the results. To truly test my hypo, though, you'd have to count how many skaters participated from each country and how many of the UR calls were questionable.

prettykeys · Dec 4, 2009

evangeline said:
:disapp: Oh great, now I'm being painted as an anti-YuNa (/un-YuNa?) fan.

No, I am expressing my belief that you are biased when you argue with/complain about YuNa fans. There is nastiness being tossed from both sides.

Also, you have a tendency to distortedly summarize other posters' positions, as you have done so twice in this thread with mine.

But what seems to be a near-consensus is that the UR call on the 3T was plain bad. I don't have any reason to believe it was motivated by dishonesty. Actually so far, this event has been relatively well-judged.

DarkestMoon · Dec 4, 2009

Adding that monster post of mine, here are a few things to consider:

1. The cream of the crop didn't go to every single competition, which is why some UR totals are far out there. Most of them came from low tier skaters.

2. Those who had no URs in that GP season eventually did get a UR in some other comp. Just because you made it through a GP season without any, doesn't mean you'll NEVER get one.

All these URs did a number of the skaters' scores with the double penalty. So while people may complain about Yu-na's UR, her score didn't suffer as bad as others.

DarkestMoon · Dec 4, 2009

sleepyjl said:
Thanks for the all the hard legwork! Fascinating to see the results. To truly test my hypo, though, you'd have to count how many skaters participated from each country and how many of the UR calls were questionable.

Thanks! Haha, I should mention most home turf comps have 3 local skaters except Eric Bompard and oddly, NHK (?)

I can say that the in SA, the American women's URs were pretty obvious.

Mathman · Dec 4, 2009

Moderator's note: This is a great thread! Thank you, one and all, for keeping it civil and courteous despite the lightning rod topic. :agree:

Daniel5555 · Dec 4, 2009

Well, I'm honestly surprised about this thread. I was sure to see more angry talk, but for some strange reason people here were more angry to Yuna when she scored high and now they are kind to her when she finished second.

Well, that's ok with me.

Today's performance was good overall. Reminds me the last year's GPs when errors from Yuna were more presented than in her latest competitions. She needs to skate without putting pressure on herself like she did at the last 4CC and Worlds. Probably she felt a bit relieved after knowing that she is on second place.
There is nothing special about this. And Miki Ando is a very strong skater. I always considered her and Joannie as... the strongest skaters besides Mao and Yuna.

I don't think that Yuna has any problem with her Flip. The situation is not at the same point as with her Loop, so I think it's all ok. Her 3-3 combination in my opinion was slightly underrotated (more than at TEB for sure). Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I saw. The judges could downgrade it or not, as it was just on frontier. That technical caller seems to be very strict, so he did it. I expected something like this really. It looks like other judges didn't think the same way.
Anyway, overall her jump combination is gorgeous and looking at it, I think that it won't be downgraded in the future and there is no any problem with it.

Her performance was good anyway and she really filled the audience with emotions. Let's see what will happen tomorrow. It looks like Yuna is going through strict judgement and some commentators noted that she couldn't loose so much points, but the judges are judges and right now, I think, we only have to accept their decision. Sometimes when you are best, you are judged more strictly than others and Yuna is... the best.

Marie_S · Dec 4, 2009

museksk8r said:
Kim is not that much better a skater than Ando, IMO.

Er... Sorry, but I can't possibly agree with you.
I suggest you get a chance to see them compete right at the scene.
If you can't tell the difference after that, I suggest you go see an eye doctor ASAP. I was totally blown away by Yu-na's skating. Faster, higher, more powerful than anybody else. Such a beautiful skater.

DarkestMoon · Dec 4, 2009

prettykeys said:
I'm talking about bad under-rotation calls. Give me an example of one that has thus far been worse thn YuNa's 3T call last night. Also, as I repeated, YuNa's 3T (contrary to what you say) was less rotated at TEB. Everyone saying her 3T last night deservedly scored less than the one in her SP at TEB are kinda... :scratch: to me.

And you seem to be treating it as if it's some moral demand on fans of a particular skater to rally to everyone's defense if they find injustice in the instance of their favourite. I don't expect Mirai or Mao or Miki fans who were unhappy about their respective fav skaters' UR calls to rally to YuNa's side right now.

1. I would say Miki Ando's UR on her 3Loop at SA last year in the short. Her combo was probably the biggest one of the 3Lz-3L.

2. I guess you haven't read numerous posts about how X fans "just" want to see fair judging for the sport (even though their skater got wronged) but they only defend their skater, fighting tooth and nail. You can be die-hardly screaming for objectivity in judging and scrutinize every skater except your favorite. You can scrutinize your favorites too.

hikki · Dec 4, 2009

prettykeys said:
I did here and there for other skaters, but YuNa's 3-3 downgrade is the worst I have seen. Of course I'm inclined to look more carefully when it's my favourite skater, but I don't know if anyone else will show me an example of a worse call.

Youtube didn't have these, but ones that come to my mind are:

Rachael Flatt SP WTT 09 3-3
Fumie Suguri SP Skate America this season 3flip (though Tara Lipinki pointed out in the icenetwork feed that it might get a call

We do have to admit there is an element of 'how could my favourite skater xx be treated like this?' in a discussion like this. Especially when it's about someone as celebrated as Yu-Na. I for one didn't protest Yukari's 3flip UR call at World 08 as she just doesn't do it for me anyway.

I do think, however, all of this goes to show how unnecessary it is to make UR calls when you can't see with your naked eyes

Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP

sleepyjl

Guest

so_proud

gourry

sleepyjl

Guest

Mathman

evangeline

YN fan

DarkestMoon

museksk8r

I said what I SAID!

R.D.

gourry

sleepyjl

Guest

prettykeys

DarkestMoon

DarkestMoon

Mathman

Daniel5555

Marie_S

DarkestMoon

hikki

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