- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Lepisto's +GOE marks are simply ridiculous. She isn't technically great at anything, I'm sorry to say. The +1.4 GOE she got for her Spiral Sequence is particularly undeserved.
Who should have taken the bronze on the ladies event?
- Thread starter raress
- Start date
Lepisto's +GOE marks are simply ridiculous. She isn't technically great at anything, I'm sorry to say. The +1.4 GOE she got for her Spiral Sequence is particularly undeserved.
Suppose the system is wrong, we fans can cry foul forever. It's fun for sure. But what would you suggest to skaters? "Do not give in to the wrong system, just keep getting beaten by Laura?" Or "learn from Laura."
I enjoyed Laura's performances so much more than any other's. However, when I saw her GoE points after the Olympics, it was "W.T.F" moment to me as well. Then (I think) I realized the little things she does to rake up GoE must have made her performances intriguing as well. That's why I said Lepisto's the best CoP player.
Sorry the only thing ridiculous here is that you have no clue how the GOE works, that's why you are claiming ridicule in everything you see - because you clearly don't understand how the system works. There are very specific protcol in which the judges follow in determining whether to award positive GOE or not. It works like a checklist. If a skater meets these requirements for each type of element, he/she will and should get positive GOE, whether it's +1, +2, or +3.
Please consult here for further reading: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=981
The distribution of GOE is not based on some subjective standard or personal preference or some unrealistic comparison with skaters who are not even there in the competition (e.g. Sasha Cohen or Caroline Zhang). Frankly, I get it that to many people, the only skaters who are deserving of anything is either: 1) My favorites or 2) Someone I like because it seems to me, every other skater is either thief, robber, overmarked, ugly, the one or undeserving... seriously take your pick already:sheesh: . I have to wonder, why so much negativity? If this is so painful and unjust, why do you keep watching then? I really want to know.
No it isn't, I already replied to your post from another thread and explained in great details how it works. To be honest, I think the lack of education on how GOE works is to be blamed for all these confusions. If you feel the way you do, I bet there are a lot of people out there thinking the same thing and that's not good at all for this sport...
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
I know perfectly well how GOE works. I understand CoP better than most any sitting judging, in fact. ASIDE from many aspects of CoP needing to be re-written, which gets into a different argument, let's look at the current rules for +GOE in Spiral Sequences:
FOR + 1 : 1 or 2 bullets / FOR + 2 : 3 or 4 bullets / FOR + 3 : 5 or 6 bullets
1. good flow, energy and execution
2. good speed during sequence
3. good body line
4. highlights the character of the program
5. superior flexibility
6. creativity and originality
Are Lepisto's spirals creative? Nope. Is her flexibility superior? Nope. Do her spirals highlight the character of the program? Nope (and hardly anybody's do enchance the program these days, thanks to the rigid requirements for making your Spiral Sequence level 4). Does she have good body line? Nope, not good enough to be considered for a bonus in any case.
That leaves 2 bullets at most that you could say classify Lepisto's Spirals - the first two. Which means she should get +1 at most for her Spiral. Many judges gave her +2.
Similarly, look at the bullets for jumps:
1. unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2. clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3. varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4. great height and/or distance
5. superior extension on landing / creative exit
6. superior flow in and out (and in-between in jump combinations / sequences)
Many judges gave Lepisto's Triple Toe-Triple Toe a +2. It should not have gotten more than +1. She doesn't have a difficult entry, so bullet #1 is not met. She does not have steps immediately preceding the jump so #2 is not met. She does not have a varied air position, so #3 is not met. She does not have superior extension on the landing or a creative exit, so #5 is not met. At the very most you could say she meets #4 and #6, which is only good enough for a +1 GOE.
As for a change I'd like to see with the GOE grading (aside from being able to give GOE in increments of .5 and the +GOE values for all technical elements being the same), bullet #1 and #2 for jumps should be combined into the same bullet. And #4 should be split into two separate bullets.
If they are going to raise the value of the triples, I actually wouldn't be against raising the value of level four footwork and level 4 spins as well. My only question about the level four footwork is are the requirements for getting level 4 footwork really clear?
Doing this wouldn't help Laura so much though because if she got 2 extra points for her level 4 spins (she only had 2 level 4 spins), and one extra for her spiral sequence and 3 extra for her jumps. It wouldn't change the fact that Ando would be getting about 6 extra points for her jumps and about 3 extra points for her other elements.
And Wrmly in general I'd like to see bonuses added to the difficulty level of combinations.
Last edited:
I find this thread quite sobering, because it makes me realize how little I understand the CoP. Thanks to all of you who have gone into detail about it! I'll have to spend some time in YouTube University figuring out how this applies to various skaters' performances.
Much of this conversation just reaffirms my opinion that the current CoP is still very subjective. When two (or more) people can use the same protocals and come to quite different results, what other conclusion can one have.
Of course I'm sure some will continue to say "you just don't understand the system". The explanations are very black and white. It's th actual scoring where I see lots of gray areas.
Of course I'm sure some will continue to say "you just don't understand the system". The explanations are very black and white. It's th actual scoring where I see lots of gray areas.
Blades based on the criteria you posted, you can see how someone like Brezina was actaully rather robbed on GOE for his jumps. He got straight +1s but really if you look at the criterai Michal deserves +2 for all of his jumps.
The only thing Michal doesn't have when it comes to his jumps is difficult entries, or creative steps/transitions preceding it (1 and 2)
Other than that he has
(3) varied positions/delay in rotation. If you look at all of Michal's jumps they are DELAYED.
(4) Great height and distance- Nobody jumps higher than Michal
(5)Superior extension/creative exits. (I'm not sure what this means completely but this kid's landings are incredible with great knees and deep edges.
(6)Super flow (look at this guys landings)
Seriously seriously the fact that Michal doesn't get accross the board +2 GOEs on his jumps is really ridiculous. If he were to ever start doing more difficult entrances, the guy would warrant plus 3s.
And that Wally is why GOE is subjective. The fact that Michal meets 3 of those bullet points every time he lands his jumps cleanly isn't really arguable.
The only thing Michal doesn't have when it comes to his jumps is difficult entries, or creative steps/transitions preceding it (1 and 2)
Other than that he has
(3) varied positions/delay in rotation. If you look at all of Michal's jumps they are DELAYED.
(4) Great height and distance- Nobody jumps higher than Michal
(5)Superior extension/creative exits. (I'm not sure what this means completely but this kid's landings are incredible with great knees and deep edges.
(6)Super flow (look at this guys landings)
Seriously seriously the fact that Michal doesn't get accross the board +2 GOEs on his jumps is really ridiculous. If he were to ever start doing more difficult entrances, the guy would warrant plus 3s.
And that Wally is why GOE is subjective. The fact that Michal meets 3 of those bullet points every time he lands his jumps cleanly isn't really arguable.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
I would say Miki for bronze. When you look at it overall Miki only messed up her combination in the SP, a sloppy spin and a downgrade on the third jump (2Lo) in a sequence, but landed 6 triples in her LP. Laura on the other hand didn't even skate a Junior-level LP.... 3 triples and all doubles?
What worries me is the idea that we might be seeing A LOT more 3T+3T combinations in the upcoming seasons.... what's the point of trying a harder combo (like 3F+3T or 3Lz+3T) or even a 3F or Lz + 2T or Lo when the 3T+3T gives a higher point total with GOE in consideration? It racks up the GOE's and, in my opinion from skating myself, is actually easier and more fail-safe than doing a 3F or 3Lz in combination with a 2T or 2Lo?
This competition proves that the old saying that "the SP can't win the competition for you, but it can lose it" with CoP is far from the truth. Mao and Yu-Na both taking gold or silver was pretty much a given... I'm sure most skaters had the mentality that Bronze would be their Gold medal. So in this case, the SP did win it for Laura, even with a subpar junior-ish LP.
I can definitely say this now.... I will be very upset next season to see skaters start giving up on their 3Lz and 3F combos (who don't have it secured with a second triple) in favor of the 3T+3T... SP layouts will all start looking like 3T+3T, 3Lz or 3F, (and of course) 2A.
What worries me is the idea that we might be seeing A LOT more 3T+3T combinations in the upcoming seasons.... what's the point of trying a harder combo (like 3F+3T or 3Lz+3T) or even a 3F or Lz + 2T or Lo when the 3T+3T gives a higher point total with GOE in consideration? It racks up the GOE's and, in my opinion from skating myself, is actually easier and more fail-safe than doing a 3F or 3Lz in combination with a 2T or 2Lo?
This competition proves that the old saying that "the SP can't win the competition for you, but it can lose it" with CoP is far from the truth. Mao and Yu-Na both taking gold or silver was pretty much a given... I'm sure most skaters had the mentality that Bronze would be their Gold medal. So in this case, the SP did win it for Laura, even with a subpar junior-ish LP.
I can definitely say this now.... I will be very upset next season to see skaters start giving up on their 3Lz and 3F combos (who don't have it secured with a second triple) in favor of the 3T+3T... SP layouts will all start looking like 3T+3T, 3Lz or 3F, (and of course) 2A.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Why is that such a problem? A 3t-3t is worth more than a 3lz-2t and is a triple-triple combination and therefore considered more difficult. Also, doing a 3t-3t assures that you won't receive edge calls on that combination. I don't really have problems with the 3t-3t, it's still a triple-triple.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2009
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
The issue I have with it is that it will start making things very repetitive and won't encourage trying more difficult things and taking risks... it's a step backwards. Just because something is worth more added together doesn't make it more difficult either... I learned a 3T+3T way before I could do a 3F+2T or 3Lz+2T, and even longer to try a 2Lo at the end. In combinations, the first jump really sets the tone for things... and the harder the first jump is, the more difficult it is to put in combination. Doing a 3Lz, the unnatural kind of counter-rotated take off is a LOT harder than simply going with the flow of your edge and sticking your toepick back for the 3T. Trying to hold the position to take off into a loop jump afterwards is also exponentially harder (and more exhausting) than extending back and picking again... heck, it can even safe a shaky landing sometimes. There is a reason skaters usually order their 3 jump sequences into 3?+2T+2Lo instead of 3?+2Lo+2T... it's a lot easier to hold that position after the easier 2T than the first more difficult jump. Starting to ramble... again, the main reason is variety and seeing skaters try to push themselves to take risks (and the joy of watching it when it happens) rather than resort to the easy way out. To me, it's similar to skaters that have their programs choreographed and planned to leave out weak jumps or jumps they just can't do when (in my opinion) a top senior level skater should be able to do every triple jump, except for the 3A, and should be rewarded for demonstrating that ability. We've lost that variety now with CoP... go back and look at Michelle Kwan's LPs and see how many times she leaves out a certain type of triple jump. Recently, it seems like the only skater able to do that is Joannie Rochette.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2008
Bennet//
Don't forget that Yuna's flip in SP got UR call unfairly.
(As unfair as previous issue of UR call on GPF2009 Tokyo.)
Actaully the rotation was enough even though the landing itself was shaky.
So low GOE is OK for me but the UR call was nonsense.
I think proper point for her SP could be around 65.
She definately deserves Silver.
Don't forget that Yuna's flip in SP got UR call unfairly.
(As unfair as previous issue of UR call on GPF2009 Tokyo.)
Actaully the rotation was enough even though the landing itself was shaky.
So low GOE is OK for me but the UR call was nonsense.
I think proper point for her SP could be around 65.
She definately deserves Silver.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2009
Whoaaaaaa. Delusional, much? I definitely agree that the UR call at the GPF was questionable, but the UR on the Flip here was as clear as the day, even without the slow-mo.
And note to all the lurkers out there... if you want to maintain any image of objectivity, don't have your username be [favorite skater's name]addiction :agree:
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Fair point, I just like to see ladies go for 3-3s, whatever those triple jumps may be.
I voted for Cynthia. After watching Laura, Miki, and Cynthia the one element for me that put Cynthia higher was the Spiral Sequence. For some reason Cynthia only received a level 2 on her's while the other 2 got level 4 and I did not see any difference beween the 3! Therefore if Cynthia had received level 4 (which is usually is) like the other 2 did she would have been at least 1.5 points higher and she would have won the bronze.
I also find if so funny that most of the American posters do not even consider Cynthia for the bronze.
I also find if so funny that most of the American posters do not even consider Cynthia for the bronze.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2008
Do not believe you own eyes too much.
If you watch the flip by slow-mo, you will see why it should not be UR.If the slow-mo cannot help you, well....any oculist will help you.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Yu-Na's Flip in the SP was 1/4 turn underrotated. It didn't need to be downgraded (especially because she doesn't pre-rotate much on her toe jumps) but it was definitely a flawed jump...she landed on the inside edge.
